Ed of all trades
Elite Member
Thanks for the reply, bcsshop. I wondered but I did want to know before I get around to spending $$$
"Powersafe" clutch on BCS
- Thread starter Bentleg
- Start date
farmerboybill
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2008
- Messages
- 783
- Location
- Southwestern Wisconsin
- Tractor
- BCS 850 diesel and 735 diesel
John, you're stretching. Joel brought in two machines and one failed. He reported here that the machines he's received are at 50% failure rate. I find it highly unlikely he's changed his mind on the failure.
farmerboybill
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2008
- Messages
- 783
- Location
- Southwestern Wisconsin
- Tractor
- BCS 850 diesel and 735 diesel
John, you're stretching. Joel brought in two machines and one failed. He reported here that the machines he's received are at 50% failure rate. I find it highly unlikely he's changed his mind on the failure.
BCSSHOP
Silver Member
Joel is selling them to customers so he must approve of them or he wouldn't selling them. Actions always speak louder words. The 749 is so nice I may buy one for myself if I could believe Kohler will still be supporting them 10 years from now.
farmerboybill
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2008
- Messages
- 783
- Location
- Southwestern Wisconsin
- Tractor
- BCS 850 diesel and 735 diesel
Joel's order of 100 BCS 853 diesels before they were discontinued speaks louder than his sale of a couple powersafes to customers who insisted on owning a powersafe. He'll also sell you a 732 if he can't talk you out of it. That doesn't mean he LIKES them.
walkbehindtractorman
New member
Hello all,
Yes, Bill is correct that the "50% failure rate" that I referred to is, of course, our own personal experience so far, and I'm sure does not reflect the total failure rate in the field for all units sold by all dealers. However, it is still accurate in terms of our OWN sales...we have, until this date, only sold ONE BCS with a PowerSafe (hydraulic) clutch. (The one that failed did so right in our warehouse, so it was never "sold".) My opinion regarding the PowerSafe is still the same: In my mind, it is, as of this date, still "unproven" in terms of its reliability, and even if it proves to have acceptable reliability in the future, it is still a system that is highly complicated and is very difficult (at best) for an end-user to service. My personal feelings regarding equipment in general are "the simpler, the better", and the PowerSafe system does NOT meet those parameters. BCS's "Heavy-duty-cone clutch" has it's idiosyncrasies, but they have worked for over 20 years, and we know how to deal with them. And: an end-user with rudimentary mechanical skills can take this type of clutch out of a tractor in 15 to 20 minutes! (We are, of course, one of the only dealerships in North America who actually repairs the BCS heavy-duty cone clutches, because we made a jig to safely take them apart. This saves our customers LOTS of money...if they send a clutch in here, we turn them around and ship it back out [repaired] within 2 business days at the latest.)
Another point regarding the PowerSafe tractors: As I have stated in another post, I really think that by deleting the "transport" gear from the PowerSafe tractors, BCS has hurt the versatility of these machines. I realize that they did this in order to meet a European safety standard...but this standard does not apply in North America, so why make us suffer with this lack of a feature on the tractor? A LOT of our customers appreciate the fact that they can use one of these tractors as a "transport" vehicle to get stuff around their property with a trailer...and the "transport" speed lets them do this much more quickly, if their terrain is suitable. The 852 and 853 tractors still have the transport speed, so this is another reason that we will offer these models as long as they are available.
I am really curious to know, John, who these customers are that are calling you... I quote your entry above: "I have had calls from his customers requesting operating details and the spec for the hydraulic oil in the transmission." Funny, how we could sell only ONE PowerSafe unit, and somehow this multiplies into "calls from customers". The fellow we sold the one 740 to last September (in PA) was provided with all the factory instruction manuals, and he even bought a replacement filter from us in December. So I don't know why he would be calling you...he obviously has our number.
Interestingly, I had a call last week from a fellow in Southern KY, who bought a 749 PowerSafe from his "local dealer" (he has a dealer closer to him than us, whom I will not name)...which dealer apparently did NOT provide what the customer was looking for in terms of oil & filter specs, etc. This fellow ordered a filter from us.
Best regards,
Joel, Earth Tools
Yes, Bill is correct that the "50% failure rate" that I referred to is, of course, our own personal experience so far, and I'm sure does not reflect the total failure rate in the field for all units sold by all dealers. However, it is still accurate in terms of our OWN sales...we have, until this date, only sold ONE BCS with a PowerSafe (hydraulic) clutch. (The one that failed did so right in our warehouse, so it was never "sold".) My opinion regarding the PowerSafe is still the same: In my mind, it is, as of this date, still "unproven" in terms of its reliability, and even if it proves to have acceptable reliability in the future, it is still a system that is highly complicated and is very difficult (at best) for an end-user to service. My personal feelings regarding equipment in general are "the simpler, the better", and the PowerSafe system does NOT meet those parameters. BCS's "Heavy-duty-cone clutch" has it's idiosyncrasies, but they have worked for over 20 years, and we know how to deal with them. And: an end-user with rudimentary mechanical skills can take this type of clutch out of a tractor in 15 to 20 minutes! (We are, of course, one of the only dealerships in North America who actually repairs the BCS heavy-duty cone clutches, because we made a jig to safely take them apart. This saves our customers LOTS of money...if they send a clutch in here, we turn them around and ship it back out [repaired] within 2 business days at the latest.)
Another point regarding the PowerSafe tractors: As I have stated in another post, I really think that by deleting the "transport" gear from the PowerSafe tractors, BCS has hurt the versatility of these machines. I realize that they did this in order to meet a European safety standard...but this standard does not apply in North America, so why make us suffer with this lack of a feature on the tractor? A LOT of our customers appreciate the fact that they can use one of these tractors as a "transport" vehicle to get stuff around their property with a trailer...and the "transport" speed lets them do this much more quickly, if their terrain is suitable. The 852 and 853 tractors still have the transport speed, so this is another reason that we will offer these models as long as they are available.
I am really curious to know, John, who these customers are that are calling you... I quote your entry above: "I have had calls from his customers requesting operating details and the spec for the hydraulic oil in the transmission." Funny, how we could sell only ONE PowerSafe unit, and somehow this multiplies into "calls from customers". The fellow we sold the one 740 to last September (in PA) was provided with all the factory instruction manuals, and he even bought a replacement filter from us in December. So I don't know why he would be calling you...he obviously has our number.
Interestingly, I had a call last week from a fellow in Southern KY, who bought a 749 PowerSafe from his "local dealer" (he has a dealer closer to him than us, whom I will not name)...which dealer apparently did NOT provide what the customer was looking for in terms of oil & filter specs, etc. This fellow ordered a filter from us.
Best regards,
Joel, Earth Tools
BCSSHOP
Silver Member
I got a call last week from a customer who said he bought a BCS 749 from Earth Tools who was confused about the controls. I explained the controls in a very simple manner while he was operating the tractor. I explained the "drive it like a car" which he liked. Also he wanted the oil spec for the transmission oil which is fairly confusing but the oil is ROTRA JD/F SAE 80W API GL-4. Supposedly this is a fairly light weight oil similar in weight to engine oil 10W-30 but suited for gearboxes, hydraulic pumps, wet clutches and the like. To anyone who services the PowerSafe units realize the dipstick is different for a much higher oil level in the transmission. Don't interchange the dipsticks!
Joel, I guess you get the credit and the blame for all two-wheel tractor things in Kentucky. I get lots of calls that confuse our shop with yours or with BCS America. As a result of this forum I get lots of calls about the PowerSafe system. The big safely benefit of the new clutch it that it stops with the clutch is squeezed. In recent years the sticking hot clutch has become more of an issue as I have a picture of Toyota Camry meeting a BCS sweeper that wouldn't stop when the clutch was squeezed. The BCS cost less to repair!
In my opinion to the first time purchaser of BCS tractor the PowerSafe system makes much more sense than the engine stop system. Couple that with the much lighter clutch lever forces and shorter clutch travel, the whole operation seems modern verses something from the 70's. Now women and men with small hands can operate the BCS easily and not pay a premium to get this feature. Not having to remember to store the tractor with the clutch squeezed is an added plus.
It's a bit ironic that the young guy likes the old spring clutch system and the old guy likes the new hydraulic clutch system. I suppose there was as much resistance when automobiles went from cable actuated to hydraulic brakes!
As far a repairing used clutches I have found most clutches returned to us have been loose on the crankshaft and damaged the rear clutch housing or they are burned to toast from slipping. The new tapered bushing attachment on most of the replacement clutches solves the coming loose problem mostly, so supplying a new clutch has some benefit to the customer. I will unstick any stuck clutch sent to us for no charge and return it if the housing is not damaged.
Joel, I guess you get the credit and the blame for all two-wheel tractor things in Kentucky. I get lots of calls that confuse our shop with yours or with BCS America. As a result of this forum I get lots of calls about the PowerSafe system. The big safely benefit of the new clutch it that it stops with the clutch is squeezed. In recent years the sticking hot clutch has become more of an issue as I have a picture of Toyota Camry meeting a BCS sweeper that wouldn't stop when the clutch was squeezed. The BCS cost less to repair!
In my opinion to the first time purchaser of BCS tractor the PowerSafe system makes much more sense than the engine stop system. Couple that with the much lighter clutch lever forces and shorter clutch travel, the whole operation seems modern verses something from the 70's. Now women and men with small hands can operate the BCS easily and not pay a premium to get this feature. Not having to remember to store the tractor with the clutch squeezed is an added plus.
It's a bit ironic that the young guy likes the old spring clutch system and the old guy likes the new hydraulic clutch system. I suppose there was as much resistance when automobiles went from cable actuated to hydraulic brakes!
As far a repairing used clutches I have found most clutches returned to us have been loose on the crankshaft and damaged the rear clutch housing or they are burned to toast from slipping. The new tapered bushing attachment on most of the replacement clutches solves the coming loose problem mostly, so supplying a new clutch has some benefit to the customer. I will unstick any stuck clutch sent to us for no charge and return it if the housing is not damaged.
GardenOrganix
New member
Hi there!
I'm new to this website but am very serious about buying BCS, so I decided to join this conversation. Like you, I've scoured the Internet looking for all the information I can find. Looks like I've found a good spot to discuss here.
From researching the BCS America website (very helpful, thanks to their upgraded website!) and talking to my dealer, the PowerSafe units have some pros and cons:
Pros: Longer clutch life, serviceable clutch, smoother shifting, safer operation, and the ability to shut off power to the implement without shutting down the engine (saves my back if I get recoil start!)
Cons: Lack of a transport speed, unknown problems that could arise due to it being a new concept.
Apparently, the manufacturer in Italy has refined and upgraded its process for producing the hydo-mechanical clutches. Maybe the bad clutch Earth Tools found were from a previous batch.
Since I don't plan on using my BCS for hauling items, the lack of a transport speed isn't a big deal. To me, the benefits of the PowerSafe outweigh the negatives.
I also called BCS America and asked the question about whether the standard cone clutches will be discontinued in favor of the PowerSafe. They told me that the factory in Italy has been producing the cone clutches for decades, so they have all of the pieces in place to continue making them. BCS is a worldwide company, and will continue to sell them along with the PowerSafe machines to countries outside of Europe.
From my research, the 853 will always be the tractor of choice for those people who want lots of versatility and transport ability. It will never replace the 749. But, I do see the 739 possibly replacing the 732, because it's the same price AND has a third "working" speed, so you can get faster mowing ability! In fact, the 739 is the unit I have my eye on. I'm going to buy soon, just need to save a little bit more $$.
By the way, it's kind of silly to see two dealers arguing on this public forum. Seems rather unprofessional.
Happy Spring everyone!
I'm new to this website but am very serious about buying BCS, so I decided to join this conversation. Like you, I've scoured the Internet looking for all the information I can find. Looks like I've found a good spot to discuss here.
From researching the BCS America website (very helpful, thanks to their upgraded website!) and talking to my dealer, the PowerSafe units have some pros and cons:
Pros: Longer clutch life, serviceable clutch, smoother shifting, safer operation, and the ability to shut off power to the implement without shutting down the engine (saves my back if I get recoil start!)
Cons: Lack of a transport speed, unknown problems that could arise due to it being a new concept.
Apparently, the manufacturer in Italy has refined and upgraded its process for producing the hydo-mechanical clutches. Maybe the bad clutch Earth Tools found were from a previous batch.
Since I don't plan on using my BCS for hauling items, the lack of a transport speed isn't a big deal. To me, the benefits of the PowerSafe outweigh the negatives.
I also called BCS America and asked the question about whether the standard cone clutches will be discontinued in favor of the PowerSafe. They told me that the factory in Italy has been producing the cone clutches for decades, so they have all of the pieces in place to continue making them. BCS is a worldwide company, and will continue to sell them along with the PowerSafe machines to countries outside of Europe.
From my research, the 853 will always be the tractor of choice for those people who want lots of versatility and transport ability. It will never replace the 749. But, I do see the 739 possibly replacing the 732, because it's the same price AND has a third "working" speed, so you can get faster mowing ability! In fact, the 739 is the unit I have my eye on. I'm going to buy soon, just need to save a little bit more $$.
By the way, it's kind of silly to see two dealers arguing on this public forum. Seems rather unprofessional.
Happy Spring everyone!
walkbehindtractorman
New member
Hi John, (and all readers)
I have no idea why the fellow who called you said he bought a 749 from us. We have not sold a single 749 yet, as it is a brand-new model...in fact we only received our first 749s in here last week.
You are right, there is general confusion out there about what "Earth Tools" is...some folks think that because of the massive amount of information our website, WE are the manufacturer of all this stuff. With the name of your website, I can imagine that you run into a fair amount of this confusion yourself.
In regards to GardenOrganix comment about it being "unprofessional" for dealers to debate on a public forum...I apologize if it seems that way to you, but I just want to make sure that information that appears on this forum regarding me and my company is accurate. I have stayed completely out of any public internet forum up until very recently, and I really hope to not spend much time on them in the future...Frankly, I'm too busy! And also: A good, civil, public debate can be educational for debaters and readers alike, as it brings up issues that might not be covered otherwise. I intend no disrespect to anyone; John has been an excellent BCS dealer for many years and takes good care of his customers. We just agree to disagree on some things.
(BTW: The BCS 853 was never intended to "replace" the 749...the 853 has been on the market for over 5 years, while the 749 is a brand-new model. In fact, it is the other way around...will the 749 replace the 853? That's what the debate is over, essentially...Also: You made a comment that one of the "Pros" of the PowerSafe system is "the ability to shut off power to the implement without shutting down the engine"...However, I must point out that this feature exists on the tractors with standard clutches as well. Anytime the clutch handle is "squeezed" [think motorcycle-type clutch control], power from the engine is disengaged from the rest of the machine...on either the PowerSafe OR standard clutch tractors. The difference on the PowerSafe is that the SAFETY system (when you let go of the handlebar safety control lever) has the same effect as squeezing the clutch lever: it disengages all drive from the tractor (wheels and PTO) while the engine remains running. The safety system on the standard clutch tractors is just a simple engine kill switch: if you let it go, the engine quits.)
While I agree that it is a bit ironic that I, the "young guy" prefer the old style clutch while John, the "older guy", prefers the new, I don't think I can quite agree with comparing it with cable vs. hydraulic brakes on a vehicle...the simplicity and effectiveness of a hydraulic braking system is hard to argue with, unlike the complexity of a hydraulic clutch with an integral mircopump. I'm also a bit worried about the vulnerability of the oil filter and exposed hydraulic hose on the underside of the machine on the PowerSafe models...a couple of good whacks while brush mowing, and you could have an oil leak...Presto, no clutch.
Regarding cone-clutch rebuilds: We see a few that have run loose on the engine crankshaft (especially with the "old style" set-screw mounting), and of course those need to be replaced. But by far the most common repair is that the inner throwout bearing goes bad, causing the clutch to keep transferring power even when "clutched". BCS would have you throw the clutch away and replace it at this point ($250), when all it needs is a $15 bearing. Occasionally we put a new clutch lining in...yes, I know BCS does not sell a replacement lining, but we get the inner cones re-lined (as long as the inner "splines" are OK) and they work great, and still saves the customer over half the cost of a new clutch.
We do so much selling of BCS equipment in areas of the Country where there are NO dealers that it is critical to offer equipment that can be serviced by the owner. And, frankly, regardless of proximity to dealers, I believe in empowering equipment owners to service their own goods and be reliant as little as possible on having to take their equipment to a "service professional", which can be time-consuming and expensive. I guess it's just part of my general do-it-yourselfer attitude...
Maybe the hydraulic clutch from BCS will end up being totally great and long-life and maintenance-free. I'm just not convinced of this...yet. However, if a customer decides that the PowerSafe hydraulic clutch system "Pros" outweigh the "Cons" and they would rather have it, we do stock the BCS 739, 749 and 750 tractors as well.
Best regards, and Happy gardening!
Joel Dufour, Earth Tools
I have no idea why the fellow who called you said he bought a 749 from us. We have not sold a single 749 yet, as it is a brand-new model...in fact we only received our first 749s in here last week.
You are right, there is general confusion out there about what "Earth Tools" is...some folks think that because of the massive amount of information our website, WE are the manufacturer of all this stuff. With the name of your website, I can imagine that you run into a fair amount of this confusion yourself.
In regards to GardenOrganix comment about it being "unprofessional" for dealers to debate on a public forum...I apologize if it seems that way to you, but I just want to make sure that information that appears on this forum regarding me and my company is accurate. I have stayed completely out of any public internet forum up until very recently, and I really hope to not spend much time on them in the future...Frankly, I'm too busy! And also: A good, civil, public debate can be educational for debaters and readers alike, as it brings up issues that might not be covered otherwise. I intend no disrespect to anyone; John has been an excellent BCS dealer for many years and takes good care of his customers. We just agree to disagree on some things.
(BTW: The BCS 853 was never intended to "replace" the 749...the 853 has been on the market for over 5 years, while the 749 is a brand-new model. In fact, it is the other way around...will the 749 replace the 853? That's what the debate is over, essentially...Also: You made a comment that one of the "Pros" of the PowerSafe system is "the ability to shut off power to the implement without shutting down the engine"...However, I must point out that this feature exists on the tractors with standard clutches as well. Anytime the clutch handle is "squeezed" [think motorcycle-type clutch control], power from the engine is disengaged from the rest of the machine...on either the PowerSafe OR standard clutch tractors. The difference on the PowerSafe is that the SAFETY system (when you let go of the handlebar safety control lever) has the same effect as squeezing the clutch lever: it disengages all drive from the tractor (wheels and PTO) while the engine remains running. The safety system on the standard clutch tractors is just a simple engine kill switch: if you let it go, the engine quits.)
While I agree that it is a bit ironic that I, the "young guy" prefer the old style clutch while John, the "older guy", prefers the new, I don't think I can quite agree with comparing it with cable vs. hydraulic brakes on a vehicle...the simplicity and effectiveness of a hydraulic braking system is hard to argue with, unlike the complexity of a hydraulic clutch with an integral mircopump. I'm also a bit worried about the vulnerability of the oil filter and exposed hydraulic hose on the underside of the machine on the PowerSafe models...a couple of good whacks while brush mowing, and you could have an oil leak...Presto, no clutch.
Regarding cone-clutch rebuilds: We see a few that have run loose on the engine crankshaft (especially with the "old style" set-screw mounting), and of course those need to be replaced. But by far the most common repair is that the inner throwout bearing goes bad, causing the clutch to keep transferring power even when "clutched". BCS would have you throw the clutch away and replace it at this point ($250), when all it needs is a $15 bearing. Occasionally we put a new clutch lining in...yes, I know BCS does not sell a replacement lining, but we get the inner cones re-lined (as long as the inner "splines" are OK) and they work great, and still saves the customer over half the cost of a new clutch.
We do so much selling of BCS equipment in areas of the Country where there are NO dealers that it is critical to offer equipment that can be serviced by the owner. And, frankly, regardless of proximity to dealers, I believe in empowering equipment owners to service their own goods and be reliant as little as possible on having to take their equipment to a "service professional", which can be time-consuming and expensive. I guess it's just part of my general do-it-yourselfer attitude...
Maybe the hydraulic clutch from BCS will end up being totally great and long-life and maintenance-free. I'm just not convinced of this...yet. However, if a customer decides that the PowerSafe hydraulic clutch system "Pros" outweigh the "Cons" and they would rather have it, we do stock the BCS 739, 749 and 750 tractors as well.
Best regards, and Happy gardening!
Joel Dufour, Earth Tools
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BCSSHOP
Silver Member
I am going to pick up on GardenOrganix comment and limit at my personal responses to my FaceBook messages. But to anyone contemplating a new BCS or any other two-wheel tractor find the dealer who will let run the new PowerSafe BCS especially the new 739. The light clutch, the full three speed gearbox, the great price, the full attachment versatility make it a unit everyone should consider. Try them from an unbiased dealer and make up your own mind.