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  1. #1
    Super Member daugen's Avatar
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    Default 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    First Look: Ferrari LaFerrari - Automobile Magazine

    If Ferrari can get 160hp in one motor for their supercar,
    why can't we have a "de-tuned" 100 hp version for our 4, 5, 6 series JD tractors, or equiv...,
    and say goodbye to diesel?

    I think this is just around the corner for us. Battery weight could easily replace lost engine mass, and
    no waiting for AC/DC power. And a huge reduction in maintenance. And likely cost per hour of use.

    i'm guessing that Fendt or maybe even JD is researching this already. Would require a major shift in thinking, but
    then the large ship marine industry figured this out a long time ago.

    The picture of the powertrain still makes me wonder a bit. First I thought those hoses were hydraulic, then electric? where's the motor?
    then back to hydraulic, that square box just didn't look "electric" to me, whatever that means.
    I bet Lamborghini is working on this too, those two competitors don't seem to like to be one-upped at all.

    Likely all gets back to the cost of the kw. The motors are available now, battery tech is always the issue it seems.
    Well, how about if we want more weight? Pile on the batteries, who cares, make your weight do double duty.

    I'll always get diesel on my hands, I love the old stuff, but now I'm starting to itch for the new.
    Not like one has to give up anything. Unless they consider our polluting diesel tractors enemies of the state...
    And then some Bloomberg grand children will come around in Federal roll offs and haul them all away.
    Sounds like a bad dream.

    So, if the electric companies can generate power less expensively than we individuals can, assuming we don't want acres of solar panels,
    I wonder if we could get a "farm" rate? Uh, remember mr politician, you like to eat don't you?

    Considering how unreliable power is in our area in storms, I think the market for backup larger gens is a strong one. Independent operation is expensive but I'd hate to be that dependent upon one source for all that would run on my farm.
    Let's see, I get in my MEV9000 kubota, and the battery level is low, no juice last night from the grid.
    Better turn on the gen...

    I grew up reading science fiction avidly, and have some experience in electronics. I really think in our lifetimes, even us somewhat over the hump guys,
    we are going to see viable large frame tractor EV operation.

    Now if you had an extra large cab roof with a retractable solar panel, like on the satellites, you could make some power while you went round and round.
    Until the extension arms broke when you dropped a wheel in that ditch... Better be made tough.

    Are you ready?
    2012 Kubota L5740HSTC3 with FEL and Long grapple, 1986 Case IH 255, Land Pride PD10 PHD, LP RCR60 & RCF2084 mowers, LP 4' box blade and rear rake, Fred Cain subsoiler, County Line potato plow, County Line 1 bottom plow, 1986 Gravely 8199G with tow behind DR rototiller, 50" deck+40" Gravely wing mowers, Swisher 44 rough cut mower,, Echo 450-18 & 600-24, Echo PPT280, 2014 JD X750 diesel garden tractor, 1968 Cub Cadet 125 under renovation, Husky-Speeco 35 ton splitter, DR tow behind string trimmer

  2. #2
    Veteran Member vtsnowedin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    There is a basic physics problem with your proposal. Nice try though.
    At low power demand (sipping rather than gulping), lead-acid batteries tend to hold about 30–40 Wh per kilogram (one Watt-hour is equivalent to 3600 J, or 0.001 kWh of energy). Ni-MH batteries score 45–60 Wh/kg, and Lithium-ion gets about 120–180 Wh/kg. Part of the reason for Li-ion’s better performance is that lithium itself is lightweight; by volume lead-acid has about 40% the capacity of Li-ion. Gasoline, at 36.6 kWh/gal, has a specific energy of 13,800 Wh/kg. Off the charts!
    http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...icit-disorder/

  3. #3
    Super Member daugen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    There is a basic physics problem with your proposal. Nice try though.

    thanks.

    I'm sure there is. This may need to wait for hydrogen or some other tech to prove itself, but
    my point was I think it's coming. Yes, gasoline is sure explosive compared to LIion, which is why we love it.
    Natural gas too. I was given a large tractor coffee table book for xmas and there are lots of older LPG powered tractors,
    with their familiar tanks sticking out. Maybe with all the "frack'in" LNG being produced, we should look first to LNG. But again,
    gas does have its power. How does diesel compare, which at 100hp levels is more likely?

    I drove a 2013 Lexus ES300H recently, basically a gussied up Avalon Hybrid. The golf cart sensation is a little unnerving at first, when one is just moving around a parking lot, with the radio off. Very, very quiet. My wife didn't like the car, though I sure liked the 40mpg.
    It was my first experience with hybrids/EV as I knew I was not a Prius guy. But this car on EV mode made me think of being in my kubota
    taking a load of brush down to the storage area only hearing a quiet whirr and some lonesome Southern sweetheart singing to me on the radio...ahem. I had tinnitus early on in life and it has made me very jumpy at loud noises, and sensitive to noise in general. So a quiet cab
    would be very appealing to me. And one of those Bose mini speaker surround systems... Since my factory radio just conked out, and yes I checked the fuse, I might just replace the thing with an inexpensive Kenwood or Sony which will sound light years better since I already put in better speakers. If there is so much engine noise that one has to crank up the stereo to hear or drown out the engine noise, it just gets too loud for me.
    I probably should drive with a nice set of active headphones on, but I'm still pretty new to my equipment, so I want to hear the equipment running too. And a mower can be super loud too...

    I was thinking of an EV tractor pulling a five bottom plow, with a mike placed on the three point.
    What a lovely symphony of noises as the earth is opened up.

  4. #4
    Elite Member JasG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    Quote Originally Posted by daugen View Post
    First Look: Ferrari LaFerrari - Automobile Magazine

    If Ferrari can get 160hp in one motor for their supercar,
    why can't we have a "de-tuned" 100 hp version for our 4, 5, 6 series JD tractors, or equiv...,
    and say goodbye to diesel?

    Are you ready?
    Did you read the article? This isn't a plug in hybrid or even a car that can run electric only. It's a dual power car where it gets power from both a gas engine and when needed an electric. This gives it a combined output of 951HP. It generates power I believe under braking and stores it till needed. An electric motor can run for a long time without a load on a battery, but under load it draws down very fast. We have electric fork lifts at work. The battery packs take up a large amount of space and don't last very long vs a small propane cylinder. With a fork lift the extra mass is good and we aren't trying to go very fast or pull a plow. I also work on machinery with a lot of the tech used to make these things possible.

    The headlining news is that the mid-mounted 6.3-liter V-12 engine is augmented by a hybrid drivetrain. Two electric motors -- one coupled to the seven-speed dual-clutch transaxle, another powering the engine accessories -- draw power from a 132-pound battery pack mounted to the floor of the car's chassis. The V-12 alone produces 789 hp and revs to a screaming 9250 rpm. The electric motor adds 161 hp, and in total the HY-KERS (for HYbrid Kinetic Energy Recovery System) cranks out 951 hp and 664 lb-ft of torque.

    Read more: First Look: Ferrari LaFerrari - Automobile Magazine
    HY-KERS System | LaFerrari


    Caterpillar has had an electric drive dozer for a few years now, trains and mining equipment for decades. Trains today can recover some of the energy on down hills and braking.
    Caterpillar's D7E Electric Drive Redefines Dozer Productivity | Construction Equipment

    http://www.constructionequipment.com...tor-evaluation

    With the Cat dozer everything is driven off electric motors, the motor only spins a generator. So the AC compressor, hydraulic pump, cooling fan and I think even the water pump for the motor are electric driven. It's been for sale since 2009 and so far from what I have read people like it.

    Komatsu has also made a hybrid excavator. It can recover energy from its swing motor.

    KOMATSU : Komatsu Introduces the World's First Hydraulic Excavator: Hybrid Evolution Plan for Construction Equipment

    There are people working on better tech, but the day of a plug in tractor are a ways off still. Even then an electric will probably need some kind of liquid fuel to store energy.
    “Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."


    Ronald Reagan

  5. #5
    Bronze Member KPark's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    I was just looking at Tesla's offerings yesterday. Nice car. With the 80kw battery you can go about 300 miles at normal operation (50-55mph). The car itself is aerodynamic and made of light-weight materials like aluminum and carbon fiber, which makes the performance possible. Given that 300 miles is the expected yield, run-time would be about 5 hours. This car costs $70,000.

    If you take that technology and put it into a tractor, you get 5 hours of no-load running (probably 2 hours of "load"), and it would take half the day to charge it back up again. If you make the tractor out of light-weight materials you get a flimsy machine that can't handle heavy loads (tipping).

    All this new technology comes at a cost - for $70,000 I could buy three to five "regular" cars, so why would most people buy "green" when it hits the wallet so hard?

    Until battery technology improves and becomes cheaper, I wouldn't count on seeing a useful EV tractor in the fields.
    ________________________
    Due to recent economic uncertainties, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice

  6. #6
    Super Member daugen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    There are people working on better tech, but the day of a plug in tractor are a ways off still.

    Until battery technology improves and becomes cheaper, I wouldn't count on seeing a useful EV tractor in the fields.


    no argument here, I agree with you. What is interesting about tractors is that in many cases, unlike their operators... more weight
    is good. So the issue of battery weight, which is huge in packaging a car, is not a handicap on a tractor, or train? where the frame is
    super strong. Never assumed the frame would be less capable. Drew

    And yes, unless the bottom line cost per hour of operation is at least competitive, few could afford to run an EV sensibly.
    But if one had a wind or solar farm...hmmm.

    Likely it will take a while for this tech to "trickle down" from mining equipment to our ag tractors.
    After Tier 4, where will they go from there?
    I really do think the EPA wants our machinery to clean the air for them, not pollute it. So what comes out is cleaner than
    what goes in, clean up that manure methane with your JD set on "clean" mode....

  7. #7
    Veteran Member vtsnowedin's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    Quote Originally Posted by daugen View Post
    There is a basic physics problem with your proposal. Nice try though.

    thanks.

    I'm sure there is. This may need to wait for hydrogen or some other tech to prove itself, but
    my point was I think it's coming. Yes, gasoline is sure explosive compared to LIion, which is why we love it.
    Natural gas too. I was given a large tractor coffee table book for xmas and there are lots of older LPG powered tractors,
    with their familiar tanks sticking out. Maybe with all the "frack'in" LNG being produced, we should look first to LNG. But again,
    gas does have its power. How does diesel compare, which at 100hp levels is more likely?

    .
    Diesel is about 25% more efficient then gasoline in same sized tractors due to both the energy density of the fuel and the way it is burned in the engine. Hydrogen is not a substitute for petroleum based fuel as it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen out of water or any other source method then it contains and it is very bulky unless supercooled and compressed. A 100Hp tractor is about 70 KW and a battery that would last just one hour would weigh about four tons not counting the driveline and wheels etc. One that could put in a full days work equal to a full tank of diesel would be just ridiculous. No we will be using bio diesel from soy beans and sunflower oil and hog fat long before we get a practical electric drive field tractor.

  8. #8
    Super Member daugen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    A 100Hp tractor is about 70 KW and a battery that would last just one hour would weigh about four tons not counting the driveline and wheels etc.

    Well, we're getting there...
    Min ten hours operation for a farm, maybe twelve.
    So current tech is 40 tons of batteries. That might be a bit much on your front lawn...
    but sure would be neat pulling out that stump.

    I'm guessing five tons of batteries might be marketable on a medium range tractor, but
    anything smaller might be overwhelmed. So they just have to go on a bit of a diet, from 40 to 5...

    I think it will happen. And yes, we need to recycle our vegetable waste also.
    Grow it, eat it, burn it, grow it again...

  9. #9
    Elite Member JasG's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    New Holland has a fuel cell tractor but I don't think it's for sale yet. They are still working on a way of getting hydrogen without more energy input than output.

    Green Car Congress: New Holland showcases farm-ready hydrogen fuel cell NH2 tractor at Agritechnica; in service at La Bellotta Energy Independent Farm from summer 2012
    Hydrogen Powered Tractor - New Holland


    Methane might be a better fuel in the future, many large farms already have digesters. Storage seems to be one issue to get it to compress down to a smaller volume requires very high pressure.

    Several years ago I read about a couple of different groups working on catalysts that would help with hydrogen. So far none have work that I know of outside the lab.
    “Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."


    Ronald Reagan

  10. #10
    Super Member daugen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 HP Plug In EV 4WD Tractor

    it takes deep pockets to develop these new capabilities, either corporate/industry investment
    in their own competitiveness, or government funded. Since we are asking our current government to spend less,
    this area may be vulnerable to the tap being turned off.

    A small refit cost to run LNG or vegetable oil makes a lot more sense. Maybe we don't need to "get to the Moon" on this.

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