Earthforce EF-500/I-R BL575 update

[MChalkley]

After a much-too-long hiatus from "improving" my EF-500, I've recently been able to do some more work on it, so I thought I'd share it here.

A few weeks ago, I cut the sidewall of one of the original tires badly enough that it was ruined. After my excellent experiences with Michelin's XM27 tires on my previous L4310HST, I decided to replace all four tires (12.5/80R18's) with Michelin's XM37 tires. They're very similar to the XM27's, except that they're reinforced and built tougher for industrial/construction site use. As I expected, they're a tremendous improvement in ride comfort and traction.

Another enhancement I've been researching for almost a year is how to modify the EF-500's hydrostatic transmission to allow me to control ground speed independent of engine speed, primarily so I can use it more easily for bush-hogging and tilling. For those that don't remember, the EF-500 uses a Rexroth hydrostatic pump and motor combination that includes a speed control they call "automotive" control. Basically, it automatically adjusts ground speed based on a variety of factors, primarily a combination of engine speed and load (resistance to motion). This control system works great for most tasks, but is not very useful for using hydraulically powered implements, because you need a constant engine speed (usually pretty high) to run them, which makes the EF-500 want to run at high ground speed (relative to which speed range you're in - high or low, of course). After a lot of conversations with various folks, I decided to install a lever-operated valve in the cab that will allow me to manually control the pilot pressure in the pump stroking circuit. After using it a few hours, it works great and really improves the versatility of the machine.

Another enhancement I wanted to make was to adjust the operating characteristics of the "automotive" control. I felt the control was adjusted to favor rpms higher than it should've - by the time top ground speed was developed, the engine rpm was so high that the engine (a Kubota 56hp turbo-diesel) was out of it's peak torque band. Fortunately, tweaking the operating characteristics is mostly just a matter of changing orifices or adjustment screws in the pump. The tweaking completed, it does all the work it used to do at substantially lower rpms - I'll be interested in seeing what this does to the EF-500's fuel usage - it was already a third less than the L4310HST was, despite having a lot more power and capability. I'll be using the EF-500 for a week-long project next week, so I'll know soon.

I'm still totally amazed at the stuff this machine will do. It's got a few disadvantages, of course. For example, it's not nearly as capable of handling slopes as the L4310HST was, given the fact that the backhoe gives it a higher center of gravity. Otherwise, it completely blows away anything else I've ever seen at anywhere near the size.

I've also got a major project in the research phase - adding air conditioning to the cab. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[RobS]

Hey Mark, welcome back! Glad to see you're still tinkering with the machine. If Ingersoll were smart they'd hire you as a consultant for product improvements. I'm continually amazed at the depth of your projects. Never happy with just bolting on a few work lights; nope, you've got to dig into the hydrostat system and rearrange the fundamental hydraulic architecture. Excellent!

Just curious though, you mentioned bush hogging and tilling. Does the EF have a three point hitch or loader mounted implements? Hydraulically driven?

Oh, one more thing... pictures! We want pictures of all this /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[JATO_RaT]

Thanks for the update and hope all is well. I checked into the XM 27's and XM 37's, which is more of a R4 lug then the XM 27's. Bulletproof looking tires and I found that Michelins tire loading pressure chart shows operating pressures down as low as 9 PSI as I recall. All the Rexroth stuff went right over my head, but trust that you are happy changing all the engineers well designed and good intentions to a more Chalkey user enviroment. I have started seeing a few of the Bobcat (EarthForce) machines now. Fantastic looking tractors and well suited I should think to rental yards for the brutal punishment they will get. Now, go out there and destroy!, Take care, Rat..., Sir King RaT to you!

 

[MChalkley]

Rob,

Thanks for the kind words. As for Ingersoll hiring me, I'd be tickled to death if someone there would just ask me to give them some input for free! At this point, I don't think I could pay somebody at I-R to listen to me, much less have them pay me! Ignore the rest of this paragraph if you don't want to wade through a rant: When I first found out that Ingersoll-Rand had purchased the company that designed and built the Earthforce machines, I had high hopes that it was the start of some big things. Unfortunately, all the evidence so far indicates that I-R is just your average big company - no better, no worse - but, nevertheless, that means: they're poorly run, they're impossible to communicate with on a meaningful and/or productive level, nobody knows what anybody else is doing, their real concern for customers doesn't get down to a level below 1,000's of them at a time, they don't really realize what they've got and what they should/could be doing with it. And all of this basically because, in my opinion, 1) they don't have any program, plan, or maybe even desire, to communicate with the customer, and 2) if they have people there who view their work as more than just a job, they're not in positions of influence. I've talked with a few people who have positions fairly high up the food chain at Bobcat and, so far, none of them can even return phone calls on a consistent basis. I haven't been able to talk to anybody at I-R at all, and nobody at Bobcat seems to be able to get anything done. Worse, I'm not sure there's anybody there who really cares. Frankly, I'm not yet even sure they didn't buy the Earthforce line to keep it from eating into the sales of their existing products. That's a terrible thing to accuse them of, but there's not much evidence to the contrary yet. I've gotten a safety recall notice for my machine, for example, but the dealer's been trying to get the parts for months now. I-R dealers are supposedly the only ones that can sell the larger machines like mine, but they don't even have them on their web site, and the dealers don't know as much about them as I knew before I even bought mine. One of the guys who's supposedly making a lot of things happen and is a big shot in the Bobcat side of things told me they were gearing up to do a lot of really great things with the product line, but he doesn't even return phone calls or e-mails. The Earthforce organization had some good dealers in place, but I-R/Bobcat yanked the rug out from under most of them, certainly the ones I was familiar with, despite the fact that these were the only folks in the country who had any experience selling or servicing the machines. The list goes on and on. Needless to say, I'm pretty disgusted with the whole situation. I've pretty much said absolutely nothing for the last year or so, because there was nothing positive to say and I was giving them time to get their act together, but I'm no longer sure they're going to. The only good thing I can think of at this point, and the only reason I even bought the machine in the first place, is that all the major components on the machine are made by companies with good presence in the U.S., so with or without I-R and Bobcat, I can get parts and service. The hydrostatic transmission is a good example. If anybody at Bobcat/I-R knows anything about it, I can't find out who they are. I've been asking them for help on how to do the stuff I got done a couple weeks ago for a year, and they were all absolutely worthless. Worse than that, they wasted my time by telling me they were working on a solution when, it appears, they never were. So I got it done through Rexroth and their dealer program. As I say, that's the good news: There are others who know this stuff, even if the folks who now sell it (supposedly - I guess they're really selling it) don't. I've basically come to view my machine as the only one in the world and a platform for me to play with and do what I want with, just as if I builit the thing in my garage. If I need a part, I assume I'll have to buy it from an independent distributor or have it made - if I can get it from Bobcat/I-R, I'll be pleasantly surprised. And, believe me, if anything good happens on the I-R/Bobcat front and I hear of it, I'll be the first to report it. I'd much rather rave about how good they are than gripe about how bad they are. And I can prove it: As I said, I've been keeping my mouth shut for about a year, waiting for something good to happen. And the real reason all this aggravates me so much is that they have an amazing product here just going completely to waste, and there's no evidence whatsoever (that I've seen, anyway) that anybody there even knows how much of a success they could make of it. And, believe me, nobody hopes I'm wrong more than I do.

But let's see, you asked me a question, didn't you? My EF-500 has hydraulic PTOs front and rear (actually, there's two on the rear and one on the front). The rear has a permanently mounted backhoe on it, so you're pretty limited as to what you can put back there. I use one of the rear PTOs to power an auger. I've got a McMillen auger head with 12" and 30" drills. It easily outperforms the mechanical PTO auger I had on my L4310HST - no contest whatsoever. About the only other powered implement you could put on the back would be a rockbreaker or something like that. I've got a custom-made quick-attach system on the backhoe that lets me switch easily between the auger head and various buckets, rippers, etc.

The front end loader of the EF-500 is equipped with a standard skid steer attachment plate, so anything that will fit on a skid steer can be used. There's also a hydraulic PTO up front to power a 4-in-1 bucket, a rotary cutter ("bush hog"), power rake, tiller, etc. On my machine, the only real limitation is that I've got a maximum of 18 gpm available, plenty for most things, though. Currently, I'm using the following attachments on the front end loader: the original Earthforce 4-in-1 bucket, custom made D&E 1.75-cu-yd high capacity bucket, 6' Agric tiller (the same one I customized with scarifiers - powered by a hydraulic motor with a standard mechanical PTO output shaft), 6' Ambusher rotary cutter, 5' Brush Brute (heavy duty fingered device that pulls shrubs and small trees up by the roots), 7' very heavy duty home-made soil pulverizer (there's a picture of it somewhere on the forum), ATI pallet forks, 8' York rake/blade combination with gauge wheels, Switch Hitch plate that lets me use three-point-hitch implements and has a ball mount for moving trailers, and a 6' Loflin root/rock grapple. As you can see, it's a pretty versatile system. The only other attachment I want right now is something that will be a better way to grade gravel roads, but that's a topic for another post...

Pictures, eh? I'll see what I can do... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Sir King RaT:

Hiya! The minimum pressure on the 18" XM37's is 23 psi, as opposed to the 9 psi on the big 24" XM27's. I'm running 25 psi in the rear and 30 psi on the front, but I'm probably going to go to 30 all the way around. And you're right: the tread design on the 37's is a little less aggressive, more R4-like. But it's made of a different rubber, too. The rubber compound in the 27's is geared toward soft soil uses, while the 37's are more for harsher environment, like you would find on a construction site. Or so the book says...

One thing I really like about Rexroth's stuff is that they seem to have thought of everything. You can get just about any kind of control for their pumps and motors and just about every operating characteristic is adjustable. The trick is finding someone who knows how.

 

[JATO_RaT]

" One thing I really like about Rexroth's stuff is that they seem to have thought of everything. You can get just about any kind of control for their pumps and motors and just about every operating characteristic is adjustable. The trick is finding someone who knows how. "


and your just the one to get it figured out. If a EarthForce type machine was in my future, you'd be the first one I would contact. I considered a smaller IR machine prior to my L3830 HST, but the L3830 is really what fits like a glove here at my place. I remove and replace the loader about as fast as I get on and off the tractor. Kubota really got the loader thing down. I was so tempted to get the L4330, the step up from the old 4310 with loader, 3 pt hitch, front axle, higher pump capacity, power steering, etc, etc improvements but I was all set on a little L3130 HST and just up'd to the L3830 to increase HP and torque for the incredible HST. Mark, I gotta tell you, Kubota really nailed it with this L30 series. Its quiet, it's super smooth, the little 3 cylinder diesel is superb. I use about 1 gph of diesel. Anyway, I realize the difference between the Kubotas and other compacts are really a whole different animal then the EF or IR machines which are really much more of an industrial machine. I would think with the size and ability of your machine, construction firms would or at least should be quite interested in using them. I hope to hear more about your ongoing work in progress, I suspect the EF5 will never be fully fine tuned, but hey, as long as your enjoying it. Rat.

 

[gordon]

Mark good to hear your doing well. But sorry to hear that Bobcat I/R isn't making any headyway with the line. Like most large companies change is slow. Shame you hit a brick wall with any help from them. Pretty dumb on their part. Makes you wonder who is actually running the company. But as long as the shareholders are making money thats all that matters.

What does the safety recall consist of? Seems strange that for a recall the parts are taking that long to get to the dealer.

Gordon

 

[MChalkley]

Hi Gordon - good to hear from you!

I guess my problem (well, one of them) is that I expect too much. For example, I tend to think it's reasonable to expect some degree of planning and logic. Before I buy a tractor, for instance, I hava a pretty good idea what I want to do with it. It just seems to be common sense, to me, that if somebody (even a company) were going to buy a whole line of tractors, along with the company that makes them, they'd do the same preliminary mental exercise. Obviously, that's not rational thinking on my part... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

The safety recall consists of a louder backup alarm, an attachable operator's guide, retractable seat belts, more warning decals, and a new seat. Two days after the dealer put in the request for the recall on my machine, he received... (drum roll here), you guessed it, via next day air, the warning decals. Cynical? Who? Me? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jhburke]

I am with you about lack of service. I had bearings and spindle go out on my kk 3 point finish mower. I went to the local dealer I found that they would have to order it. At least 2 weeks to get it in. I told him no way. I am a retired parts manger and I called a company who did not have the parts. But they give me the phone number of another company who had the assy in stock. I ordered it and it came in 2 days. It amazes me that even tho I was willing to pay the cost of ordering the assy. I know they were going to bump it to purchasing and then wait until they had a freight free shipment. I would then still had to pay freight charges. Just another way of stiffing the customer. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif This took all of about 10 minutes and 2 phone calls one of which one was toll free. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[MChalkley]

RaT,

I won't take all the credit for getting the Rexroth pump and motor in the EF-500 fine-tuned. It would never have happened if I hadn't had the help of an engineer at Rexroth who not only has a job there, but an interest in what he's doing. He helped me a lot and didn't make a dime off it, either. His company got to sell me a $350 valve out of the deal, but that's about it. Livingston & Haven in Charlotte, NC were also very helpful - they did a really nice job on the installation stuff. Due credit where credit is due...

I stopped in to see my old Kubota dealer a couple weeks ago and looked at all the latest stuff. I thought the L30 series was really nice stuff. A little small, but... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Speaking of fuel consumption, here's something that will amaze you: my L4310HST averaged a little over .8 gph (actual, not "PTO hours") - the EF-500 with a 56hp Kubota turbo-diesel is averaging .536 over the 290 hours I've got on it so far. I'm really interested in seeing how it does now that it's tuned so the the engine doesn't have to rev up out of the torque band so much. I don't see how it can do much better.