Antonio Carrera Tractors

   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #21  
I was getting excited at the thought of a rear steer 100hp wheel tractor to run a PTO forestry mulcher instead of a PosiTrack loader until i saw that photo . Unless they recast those housings to at least 1/2" thick i would not now entertain the idea .
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #22  
Whether they fix it or not I suspect the failure demonstrates a fragility in design for loader work. That is an area where I need strength.
larry

Yes...but many applications we have are orchard based and don't necessarily need an FEL, I liked the AC design...now I'm wondering whether there is any company standing behind the tractors...we can just as soon go the higher priced spread route with John Deere Badged Goldonis, because I know JD has stood behind their products in the past...(who knows what the future position will be...:D)
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #23  
Help!!!

I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old...

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors) to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance.... I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company... The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated.

PS: I believe that the casting is defective. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots.

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half... I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...

You know you might want to spend a couple of bucks more and have the metal analyzed by an independent testing lab to make sure the metal isn't substandard...;)
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #24  
Thank you for all of your replies and questions!

The $50,000 question is yes it was very expensive.... and I still owe $15,000+ on it. With the fall of the dollar, this year I decided not to upgrade to the 84 HP TRH hydrostatic version because the base price climbed almost $20,000 higher than it was listed for 3 years ago!!!

I have been toying with the idea of a mulching head like Fecon or Loftness as well. I only have a Fransguard V4000 winch and a 5' Woods Brush Bull. The thing that I have noticed though is that if the ground is soft, there is so much weight over the rear wheel with the mower that it would be easy to get stuck if you were not carefull. I was looking at dueling out the wheels and eliminating that issue. You figure if the 5' Woods weighs about 600 Lbs, the mulcher must weigh in close to 1500 Lbs+, at least the 3-pt hitch is rated for around 4,000 Lbs...

I personally think that if you were going to be mulching more than 25% of the time, the Positrak would be the way to go. Those things are pretty bullet proof, you only have to look out for the dirt/clay buildup in the tracks that can lead to seizing and track failure...

The Antonio's are really gentlemen's vineyard tractors as advertised... they are built to handle the really tough jobs around the cultivated landscapes, but not the types of work you would really want to do in the woods unless you took the time to armor up the whole tractor against rocks and sticks etc... because every hose, fitting and electrical wire to the engine is exposed....

Working with them in the woods is do able, just look at what they are up to on u-tube!!! This one has a mulcher and look at the others there doing all sorts of stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA15x...eature=related

The point is that once you get the tractor, be prepared to put a lot of time into customizing it to do the work you want.

I have been thinking of sending the parts out to get tested, but I am waiting to hear back from my dealer, or someone from the company that is willing to TALK to me....
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #25  
Thanks for that info it has helped a lot . The weight of a forest mulcher is around 1500 kilograms , over 3000 pounds . Looking at it now , reversing uphill with that weight on the linkage would be wheelstand territory . And way to much to expect from a purpose built ag tractor .
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #26  
Hi Dave,

Yeah, unfortunately, to get that darn near roll over proof design the Carraro Tractors are that time consuming to work on. Many of my dealers have been to the school in Italy, and even my fastest guys can't get one of them split in under 14,, and that's hauling and no lunch or ringing phones for two days and a shop whelp there to hand him tools. There is a cost for that kind of safety and pulling capacity,, everything is ultra compact and hard as HE double Hockey sticks to get to... But you have to admit,, that tractor can just about climb up a wall side ways. Anyhow, I totally understand your frustration and I'll stick with you on this as long as I can. Luckily the National Sales Manager lives only about 15 minutes from me,,, and they hate seeing me show up with "that look" ,,, just like any man hates seeing a woman walk up to his door with "that look".... cause you know something is about to go sideways.

Anyhow, keep me in touch ..

I'm sorry about that service shop taking so long. Odds are being the time of year that we're in is a major culprit. Especially since he's no longer selling Carraros. If he sells any other brand he's probably under contract and had to back burner your tractor in order to keep the other supplier happy.

This happens alot in the tractor business where big names really muscle their dealers around and tell them "If you have our tractors this is what you can or cannot do or sell".. And they have certain customer "happiness" indexes that they must acheive, Or they have to make a certain market percentage to keep their dealership. Which is a really tough game and where you get alot of the cut throat pricing. Great for consumers, until some one willing to make $200.00 less comes along, and you lose the dealer that services your tractor to a guy willing to under cut the ohter guy for the sake of market percentages. The supplier gets paid the same no matter what so they don't care. The margins & suppliers in the tractor buisness can be brutal, and they just don't care because theres always somebody behind them just waiting their turn thinking they will be the next big deal in tractor selling.

So odds are this is what your guys is up against, he probably isn't meaning to neglect you, he's just trying to keep his job of selling who ever elses tractors he's got now. The Machinery business is ugly,, with a capital U.


Ok, the moral of this story, Besides the whole Carraro situation,,, find a dealer you know, that is convenient & close and that you like and help keep them in business. Beating a dealer up for a $100 difference from a guy and hour away is not good policy, especially if you are ever going need anything for the tractor you buy,,, If you are happy with what you got and want to be able to stay happy, give your quality dealer referrals,,, in the end, you are really helping yourself.

Paula
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #27  
I had contacted a man at acamerica in hoping to start a dialogue about my situation and here is his reply...

From: Dave Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:47 PM
To: bclark@antoniocarraro.com
Subject: Help my tractor broke in half!!!



I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old... I bought it new from a fellow in CA named Eugene Canales whom trucked it out to me.

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors)[Bruce Clark] This method voids the warranty on all tractors that I know of and is usually prohibited in a loaders operation manual to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance....[Bruce Clark] Floor jacks are recommended when performing such a task I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.[Bruce Clark] Even though this is not recommended, this should not cause such damage. There must have been another factor involved

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company...I知 sorry to hear that you have that opinion. The odds of this being a defect is very remote. The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...[Bruce Clark] this would have nothing to do with the cause of the failure

I believe that the casting is defective. [Bruce Clark] Then you should send this part to our office. They then could examine the part. If in their expertise and examination they find it a defect, I知 sure they would help you even if your warranty has expired. On the other hand, be aware that this kind of failure would be very remote. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots. [Bruce Clark] The design is very sufficient

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. [Bruce Clark] Please do not insinuate that there is a design fault or that the company is skimping on metal. Such accusations are very damaging if publicized and would be defended in a court of law. Antonio Carraro Tractors are of the finest quality and their reputation for producing a market leading product with a great reputation is very important to the company. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.[Bruce Clark] I would suggest that you look for wear in that area that would be uncommon. Loose bolts can cause this in tire rims. I would look to for loose or missing bolts to contribute to this failure and not a design flaw.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.[Bruce Clark] A full investigation then maybe required

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the initial 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half...[Bruce Clark] I am a little confused, what dealer was this and where? I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...[Bruce Clark] hmmm

I would like to think that the company received a bad batch of cast iron from one of it's suppliers.... My tractor should not have broken in half under it's own weight.[Bruce Clark] It did not. The only other possibility is that some one vandalized it. [Bruce Clark] Please explain The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing. [Bruce Clark] Dave, this issue is finished. If after 2 years those bolts have become loose and or lost, then of course this explains the failure you experienced. If you allowed operation of this tractor with or without a front loader on it, with loose or missing bolts on the bell housing, you were risking a failure due to neglect and lack of maintenance that could have resulted in causing major harm to the operator. He thinks that they were present at the time of the break though.[Bruce Clark] You stated that 典he dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing? Please do not contact our department on this issue. Please do not make statements about flaws in the tractor.

Do you think it is possible that since they are putting bigger and bigger engines on the same frame that was initially designed for (40 - 50 HP tractor) that once you get into a 68 - 84 HP tractor, the chassis is under designed?[Bruce Clark] No. I think that all owners must examine their own tractor for loose bolts.

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated. I got your info from this forum...[Bruce Clark] I went to the forum. I think it would be in all our interest, if you explained that the loose bolts caused this failure after 2 years and not a design or material defect.

I will look for this update on the forum.

http://www.tractorforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11137&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

Well, instead of trying to contact me and talk about my problem, I have been immediately dismissed and told NOT to contact the office about this matter!!!

The thing is, if they could determine that It was vandalism my insurance would cover it!!! Why slam and accuse me of something NO ONE is capable of inspecting... All of the housing bolts are so inaccessible that you have to take everything off in order to inspect all of them. But, it would not be that hard for someone to take a large hand wrench and back the bottom ones out that are accessible. Also, I am not claiming that the bolts were not tight. That was the DEALER!

Vandalism and theft in our neighborhood has been documented and people have been arrested because of it. My property has already been targeted on 3 occasions.

No one working for a living can inspect every single bolt on a tractor before they start it up and work with it every single time!!! Especially the inaccessible ones that are supposed to be designed never to get loose in the first place!!! And when you have no reason to suspect damage AND you are getting ready to perform maintenance!!!

My dealer is the only one in New England and he is a 9 hour round trip from my location... He had experienced too many difficulties in working with acamerica that he (unbeknown to me at the time I dropped it off) quit being a dealer for Carraro.... So I'm sure he is not getting the best response from acamerica either...

He has thrown out an estimate of around $18,000 to repair... I am going to get pictures of my own and see it for the first time tomorrow....

The ONLY other dealer is somewhere in New York and some 15+ Hours away in one direction...

Any ideas on how much the parts cost?
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #28  
I had contacted a man at acamerica in hoping to start a dialogue about my situation and here is his reply...

From: Dave Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:47 PM
To: bclark@antoniocarraro.com
Subject: Help my tractor broke in half!!!




Well, instead of trying to contact me and talk about my problem, I have been immediately dismissed and told NOT to contact the office about this matter!!!

The thing is, if they could determine that It was vandalism my insurance would cover it!!! Why slam and accuse me of something NO ONE is capable of inspecting... All of the housing bolts are so inaccessible that you have to take everything off in order to inspect all of them. But, it would not be that hard for someone to take a large hand wrench and back the bottom ones out that are accessible. Also, I am not claiming that the bolts were not tight. That was the DEALER!

Vandalism and theft in our neighborhood has been documented and people have been arrested because of it. My property has already been targeted on 3 occasions.

No one working for a living can inspect every single bolt on a tractor before they start it up and work with it every single time!!! Especially the inaccessible ones that are supposed to be designed never to get loose in the first place!!! And when you have no reason to suspect damage AND you are getting ready to perform maintenance!!!

My dealer is the only one in New England and he is a 9 hour round trip from my location... He had experienced too many difficulties in working with acamerica that he (unbeknown to me at the time I dropped it off) quit being a dealer for Carraro.... So I'm sure he is not getting the best response from acamerica either...

He has thrown out an estimate of around $18,000 to repair... I am going to get pictures of my own and see it for the first time tomorrow....

The ONLY other dealer is somewhere in New York and some 15+ Hours away in one direction...

Any ideas on how much the parts cost?
Bolts dont come loose in correctly designed and properly torqued assemblys. One or the other is the problem. Id guess it was improperly assembled, but it could certainly be in combination with design shortcomings.
larry
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #29  
It certainly is a curious design , instead of the usual bell shaped flanges which bolt face to face . I don't think i would have chosen to slide one housing inside another and then bolt through the sides which would require the brittle cast housings to pull together to become tight . And in regards to not being able to lift the front of the tractor with the loader , what difference would that make to the housing other than reverse the load as compared to lifting a bucket full of dirt ? And if while pushing dirt , snow , whatever and the bucket rides up over a mound and lifts the wheels a little would the tractor break in half ? Maybe the loader arms should only have single acting rams so no downforce could be applied :rolleyes:.
 
   / Antonio Carrera Tractors #30  
I was getting excited at the thought of a rear steer 100hp wheel tractor to run a PTO forestry mulcher instead of a PosiTrack loader until i saw that photo . Unless they recast those housings to at least 1/2" thick i would not now entertain the idea .
The problem is that it's a design that under manufacturer recommended standard of operation, they don't fail (until that one). Which is why this is an issue. Dave admits that he was lifting the tractor up, which actually is not standard in use for tractor or loader according to the manufacturers,,, and it does void the warranty on both,, I know, it seems odd because for some guys this is common practice, but if you read back a few,, you'll note that I've said it before,,, it causes no end of problems, and should not be done. Any how, it's basicaly now like a public admission of guilt,,, sorry Dave because I really do empathize with you,, but it is unfortunately what it is. And like I said I'm virtually powerless to do anything because I'm just a peon.
Anyway, I don't think anyone really knows how to look at this. It is what has always been in the past,,, a bullet proof casing. Under normal circumstances it's not an issue and with no loader units it has never been seen before in the Carraro line up. Honestly, up until a few years ago that oscilationg tunnel was really the soft spot,,, the bushing was too soft and required more maintenance then the average American user was ever going to give. Since then, they learned better and developed a hard metal compound bushing/sleeve and sealed it up for better lube retention and easier/less maintenance. But those casings are made really well and with metal that Carraro uses to make axles and several other key componants for other makers models that also have not seen such breakage. So I'm sure everyone feels for Dave, but I can only venture to guess that they just don't know what to do and have it also come out fair for them.

As for making 1/2 inch castings,,, you must not be planning to buy a compact, ultra low profile, high horse power tractor from anyone for a darn long time,,,

We all know it would be a complete lie for any tractor dealer or rep to say that their tractors were perfect and built to do anything and everything. And anyone that believes some one that says that is a fool. But used with in the recommended work that these tractors are designed for specifically, you couldn't ask for something more agile, safe, and with any better out right pull abilty then these tractors. Carraros biggest issue is that they are always WAY ahead of everyone else. So they are kind of like the sacrificial lamb of the orchard vineyard tractor industry... they'll always be light years ahead of everyone else,,, but unless you are doing orchard vineyard oriented work or traversing some seriously scary ground, there are other tractors that are cheaper that will do ok for the average work scenerio. Carraro tractors are a specialty tractor. They will go where other tractors just can't and they will do it far safer.

People ask for loaders and other things,,, somebody will make them, regardless of the risk, some one will always be standing there, ready to take your money and fulfill a wish or need, regardless of the long term out come. And that outcome unfortunately really is entirely upto the end user. As with any equipment, a person really has got to use common sense when adding any kind of equipment or load. And again, I have to say it,, you can look at the Carraro desgn and see they are not a tractor built to take a front mounted loader,,, the rear loaders on them are a more sensible design, but still, they are just not intended to "Carry" loads above the 3 point, they are made to pull.

Few tractors were designed to take loaders until the last 30 or so years ago, And those were often the commercial only models that no one except contractors could afford and many were still primative and large. But, with the housing and economy growth,,, more do it your selfers and folks with a few dollars moved out of town buying land to farm has forced a huge growth in the loader manufacturing business.

Tractor makers this last 12 years in particular have been really catching up and making the needed changes and building the traditional tractors to take that kind of beating, we've especailly seen huge leaps in the axle designs. But the specialty market is the specialty market.... they are intended to excell at something in particular,,which in the case with Carraro,, pull heavy loads up steep narrow and low canopy orchard and vineyard hills, turn themselves and their load around on tight headlands then hold it all back and keep a driver safe from the effects of inertia and gravity when coming down the next row. Plus do it in reasonible comfort by preventing operator fatique which is the biggest cause of accidents with ANY farm machinery.

If they do well at other tasks (and they do) this is wonderful, but no tractor is intended to be everything to everyone. It's the reason that you really have to evaluate the difference between want and need, and use complete common sense when you evalute the use and matching machine to implements and the combination there of to the jobs you want to do. It's all about balance, force and geometry....
 
 
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