Super Apache 3PH Chipper Questions (long)

[jaybrad]

Thanks to a tip from another TBNer, with the help of a friend I picked up a WW Grinder Super Apache 240c chipper today. That was the easy part.

When we got it home, the fun started - and never ended.

The dealer hooked it up to one of his tractors so we could see/hear it run and it was smooth and reasonably quiet, so in the truck it went.

When we got it home, we hooked it up to my tractor (Massey Ferguson GC2310) and immediately snapped the shear pin bolt. The tractor at the dealership had a clutch on the PTO so he could gradually engage the PTO, but the PTO on my tractor just starts when you engage the lever. Even with the engine at idle, it snapped several bolts - so eventually we wound up trying a 1/4" #8 hardened bolt, which seems to defeat the purpose of a shear pin, but we didn't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

Next part of the ordeal was that the shaft had to be cut. We started by taking about 1/2 inch from both the shaft (female half attached to the chipper) and the drive (male end attached to the tractor). Still too long, so we took off another inch+. When we put it back together with the case hardened bolt, it spun and chipped like crazy. That was a good sign, but short lived.

The next time I engaged the PTO drive, the drive just spun inside of the PTO shaft. It looks like with our second cut we essentially reached the end of the shaft with the square receptacle, and the force of engaging the PTO caused it to shear what little support there was - and that was the end of today's adventure.

So, my questions are about both the shear pin and tractors that don't have clutch engaging PTOs - and looking for guidance on repairing or buying a new PTO shaft. Are these things someone standardized so that I can just buy a new shaft and replace it from the universal joint up? If so, any ideas what that might cost - and then, will we run into the same issue about it not being square far enough into the shaft to tolerate the torque of starting up?

I did a search on this chipper and found an e-mail address of a possible parts supplier in Canada, but an e-mail I sent to that address was returned as undeliverable.

We also had a heck of a time getting the PTO attached to the tractor. This is a new tractor and the first time that anything was connected, but after lots of filing and grease (elbow and lithium), I was able to get it on and off smoothly, but only in 1 position - if I move it to the next slot it will start on, then bind up. We tried the PTO shaft on another tractor and it went on and off easily. Is it normal (or not abnormal) to have to file the PTO spline on a new tractor? I never had this problem with any of my other machines.

Looking for guidance and suggestions from the TBN collective.

Thanks (and again sorry for the length),
Jay

 

[shvl73]

Hi Jay! Sorry to hear of the issues. On mine, I've only snapped one shear pin so far. They spec a grade 5 bolt. Check (with it off) to make sure nothing is caught in the chute or in the shredder. It may not take much on initial start to shear the bolt. I think I've seen the male end of the shaft at TSC but, I cannot remember seeing the female end. If you cut the female end, you may have to replace it. My tractor has a electric engaging pto, no clutch to ease it in. I just start at idle and then speed up, so far, no problems. I'm not sure what to make of the problems connecting the shaft to your tractor, other than maybe dirt or rust. I have a manual, if you don't. I can copy it for you if you'd like. I'll be in your area this week, if I can help.
Torin

 

[jaybrad]

Hi Jay! Sorry to hear of the issues. On mine, I've only snapped one shear pin so far. They spec a grade 5 bolt. Check (with it off) to make sure nothing is caught in the chute or in the shredder. It may not take much on initial start to shear the bolt. I think I've seen the male end of the shaft at TSC but, I cannot remember seeing the female end. If you cut the female end, you may have to replace it. My tractor has a electric engaging pto, no clutch to ease it in. I just start at idle and then speed up, so far, no problems. I'm not sure what to make of the problems connecting the shaft to your tractor, other than maybe dirt or rust. I have a manual, if you don't. I can copy it for you if you'd like. I'll be in your area this week, if I can help.
Torin

Torin,

Thanks for the reply and offer. The tractor is going to the shop tomorrow to be fitted for a snowblower and I'll ask them about the PTO shaft. I'll also pick up some Grade 5 bolts since grade 8 doesn't exactly seem like a shear pin rating.

There was nothing binding the machine, in fact we could turn it by hand - I think it was just a matter of getting that heavy flywheel turning from a dead stop that caused the pins to break.

I got a manual with the chipper, but thanks for the offer to copy it for me.

Before we ruined the female shaft, we put some pretty good sized pieces through it and it chipped them up nicely. I had the tractor running at about 2,000 RPM and it never lugged while chipping. I know that once I get these things taken care of that it will be a useful attachment.

One other lesson I learned is that even when things are not going as smoothly as one would hope (and we had lots of that today), working on it with friends is still fun (and we had lots of that, too).

Do you get by this way often? I roast my own beans, so there's usually a pot of pretty good coffee to be found.

Jay

 

[FarmerSmith]

Jay,
I ran a Super Apache for a couple years....... it was very good to me ! Your mistake (as you now know) was cutting the "female" end. Unlike most modern PTO shafts, you only needed to cut the "male" end on your shaft. Though you can get a new female portion of the slip joint, i suspect you may need to have someone with a vast selection of PTO parts special order it for you. I have never seen ANY PTO retailer that has had that piece in stock. You would probably want either a machine shop, or an autmotive driveshaft shop cut off the old piece and weld on the new one. You are going to want it to be pretty "true"..... something i don't imagine i would attempt at home with my mig welder. All this...... on top of the fact that you may now also need the "male" end, would make me recommend that you just replace the whole shaft from the u-joint on out with a modern (heavy duty) PTO shaft. Somewhat of an expensive lesson..... but it would be common to shorten BOTH ends equally on a modern shaft, so, who'da known??

As far as shearing the bolt........ you are correct that its just a matter of getting that hefty flywheel turning. On my tractor.... i had to slowly feather the clutch pedal.... get it to start turning , then push the clutch back in..... let the chipper spin a couple seconds ...... then let the clutch all the way out. I have sheared several bolts..... rarely while chipping, it was almost always getting her spinning. Like Torin said..... put grade 5s in it. If that doesn't work with your on-or-off PTO..... i can only suggest using a grade 8. It does have belts that can slip or break in the event of a problem.

As far as parts go, you are on your own ! This isn't necessarily a problem though. I needed a set of knives for mine.... i just pulled the originals and took them to a machine shop. I had a brand new pair made in 24 hrs (i think they used hardened tool steel..... but a machinist would certainly know what to use) for something like $25. Same goes for the hammers in the shredder. You can rotate them as they wear ..... if they get bad, just have new ones made. No big deal. Knives can be sharpened at any competent sharpening shop, chainsaw shop, or machine shop. The shafts and bearings are all "off the shelf" parts, easily found at many suppliers. There is very little on the chipper that can wear that wouldn't be easily found or made..... and with home owner use, it should last virtually forever.

Only problem i had with mine was a clearance issue between the knives and the anvil. That is why i ended up having the knives made at the machine shop. I couldn't quite get enough adjustment out of my knives to get the clearance (recommended in the manual... from memory was 1/16th of an inch?) tight enough. I had the machine shop make the new knives a bit wider than the originals..... cured the problem. I suspect mine was just a slight manufacturing defect. Getting the clearance right made a tremendous difference in its performance !!!

I think you did pretty well on the chipper, even if you do have to invest a few bucks into it. I chipped mounds of brush with mine, and was always happy with its performance (once i got new knives made) both chipping, and shredding. I saw one of them sell on EBAY for over $1,300 awhile back !

 

[jaybrad]

FarmerSmith, Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure that I could have cut just the "male" side of the PTO shaft and achieved the length I needed. Even on the ground, it was pretty tight on my little tractor, and when I lifted it, the PTO shaft bottomed out quickly.

I've seen replacement PTO shafts online at TSC - and they have a store not too far from where I live, so I know that all is not lost. The added expense of a new shaft will make a good deal a bit less sweet, but once I am able to use this around our property I'm sure it will turn out to be worth the effort.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Jay..
Sounds like you need a new PTO shaft anyways...so why not get one with a Clutch instead of a shear pin? With the clutch properly adjusted, it should/could give you a little slippage when "dead starting" it....two birds with one stone
The No-Clutch PTO Engagement has me scratching my head...I havent put anything PTO Driven on my 3520 yet so I'm wondering how that will work..I know on my Dad's L2900 if you dont clutch it to start the snowblower, you might as well head to the Shop to replace the shear pin.

 

[jaybrad]

Jay..
Sounds like you need a new PTO shaft anyways...so why not get one with a Clutch instead of a shear pin? <snip> The No-Clutch PTO Engagement has me scratching my head...I havent put anything PTO Driven on my 3520 yet so I'm wondering how that will work..I know on my Dad's L2900 if you dont clutch it to start the snowblower, you might as well head to the Shop to replace the shear pin.

Dave,

Not sure I know what you mean by a PTO shaft with a clutch? The tractors I'm familiar with that have a PTO clutch have that as part of the tractor itself, not as part of the PTO shaft or implement.

On those machines, they activate the PTO itself (rear or MM), then engage the mechanism and release a clutch. However, on my tractor and on many others I've seen this size range, I active the PTO I want, then there is a single lever that activates the PTO, there is no extra clutch mechanism. Once the lever is moved, the PTO engages - and I think it goes right to 540 rpm (I could be wrong about this, but I don't think that the rear PTO speed changes with engine RPMs).

I talked with a local dealer and am sending the shaft and measurements to them this morning. After explaining what I had done and what I need, he seemed to think they could fix it. I guess time will tell when he actually has the parts in his hands.

...just another one of those "tractor educational opportunities".

Jay

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Dave,
Not sure I know what you mean by a PTO shaft with a clutch? The tractors I'm familiar with that have a PTO clutch have that as part of the tractor itself, not as part of the PTO shaft or implement.

Well, easiest way to explain is to show...
I know what you mean by "engagement" of the PTO...what I was referring to was replacing the Shear Pin Style PTO Shaft with a Slip Clutch Type Shaft....rather then bust the shear pin, the clutch slips...preventing damage to the tractor...

What I'm talking about would be a shaft like this:

instead of it having a shear pin like this:

 

[jaybrad]

Well, easiest way to explain is to show...
[/IMG]

Ah....I get it now.

Pictures are always helpful - that's why I like TBN better than Classic English Literature.

I hadn't seen a clutch PTO shaft like that before - do you know where to order them, and what the price difference is between those and the traditional "break the shear pin" style?

Thanks!

Jay

 

[waytech]

Tractor Supply Website has them. I have also seen in our local store, the shaft with the clutch attached at the u-joint

Slip Clutch Only

Shaft with attached Slip Clutch