Offset Disc O.K. for Small CUT?

[Riddler]

In another thread, I mention that I would like to disc vine rows with a small compact (NH TC15). My ideal working with for the disc is 54".

Most manufacturers make their tandem discs in either 48" or 60" working widths. I have found one make/model, however, in a 54" width, but it is an offset disc. It weighs about 500 pounds. I'm told that offets tend to pull the tractor to one side. Will I find the pull of this particular offset unit difficult to manage with a small tractor in a narrow vine row? If I can arrange it, I will certainly try out the offset before I commit to buying it.

Mfall back is a 48" tandem, but that will require multiple passes down many of the rows to get things just right. It's a 10 acre site right now, so the difference between being able to make a single pass, and having to go over the same ground again, is rather substantial.

 

[rambler]

In another thread, I mention that I would like to disc vine rows with a small compact (NH TC15). My ideal working with for the disc is 54".

Most manufacturers make their tandem discs in either 48" or 60" working widths. I have found one make/model, however, in a 54" width, but it is an offset disc. It weighs about 500 pounds. I'm told that offets tend to pull the tractor to one side. Will I find the pull of this particular offset unit difficult to manage with a small tractor in a narrow vine row? If I can arrange it, I will certainly try out the offset before I commit to buying it.

Mfall back is a 48" tandem, but that will require multiple passes down many of the rows to get things just right. It's a 10 acre site right now, so the difference between being able to make a single pass, and having to go over the same ground again, is rather substantial.

Just how percise are you trying to be? A disk will throw ground farther than it's width, so the 48 inch disk will probably cover your 54 inches just fine. The 54 inch disk likely will throw a fair amount of dirt onto one side of whatever you are disking, outside of the working width of it.

If you are trying to get to the nearest inch, perhaps you would do better with an adjustabl cultivator, which allows you to add or drop shovels, and move gangs?

The regular disk will move dirt from the middle to the outsides, so repeated use of the typical disk in a 54 inch row will tend to make the sides higher, and the middle of your row will lose dirt. After a while, the middle will no longer touch the low spot, and the outsides will dig pretty deep. You will have a vee shaped trench in the row.

The offset disk will take dirt from one side and move it to the other side, so a small valley will be on one side, and a small ridge will be on the other side. If you want that you could continue
driving that way; if you want to keep the row level the next time you drive the other way, moving the ridge over towards the valley.

Clear as mud?

--->Paul
--->Paul

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Why are you discing your row centers? No one around here discs their row centers anymore. They changed to a rototiller around 10-15 years ago and now use chemicals to kill the grass in the row centers.

If you insist on using a disc I feel your TC is going to be too small for that type of disc. I have a 60" offset that I got when I bought another farm out and it sits in the weeds as it is more of a hassle then it is worth. If there are ruts in the rows I use the rototiller to smooth them out. If I need to control vegetation then I use the sprayer. Much faster and easier.

 

[Riddler]

This dialogue has a lot of value for me.

It is rather critical in our area to regularly remove vegitation in both the vine rows and the middles. One reason, for example, is the importance of conserving subsoil moisture for as long as possible during our completely rainless growing season. The are a bunch of other reasons too that I suspect are probably unique to our area and type of farming.

In my other thread I just mentioned that I have 40" rototiller that I have used previously for weed control. The three problems with that are (1) rototilling is hard on the soil chemistry/texture over the long haul, (2) I have to take two passes down each row to do a complete job, and (3) although the area looks superb when I'm done, I have a hunch that I hasten the growth of new weeds by churning up the seed bank.

We do one application of Round Up in the vine rows as soon as the vines are completely dormant. We could certainly do the row middles while the vines are dormant. After bud break in March though, it's a bit risky to use post-emergent herbicides. The annual weeds, however, continue to grow through May, and then the perennial weeds take over, so a lot of weed control is necessary beyond budbreak.

Great point about the dirt throwing. I do want to keep the middles and the rows as uniformly level as possible. The guy I buy my implements from agrees that dirt throwing and build up of soil along the rows can be an issue. He says that the issue can be largely avoided, however, by removing the end discs on the front gang of the tandem. That way, the front gang won't throw dirt outside the reach of the rear gang, which then throws the dirt back in. I appreciate that the tillage along the outside edges won't be as good (with only only disc working) as in the center (where two discs will be working), but other than that, will his suggestion really work?

Finally, where can I go to see what an adjustable width "cultivator" looks like?

 

[Robert_in_NY]

This dialogue has a lot of value for me.

It is rather critical in our area to regularly remove vegitation in both the vine rows and the middles. One reason, for example, is the importance of conserving subsoil moisture for as long as possible during our completely rainless growing season. The are a bunch of other reasons too that I suspect are probably unique to our area and type of farming.

In my other thread I just mentioned that I have 40" rototiller that I have used previously for weed control. The three problems with that are (1) rototilling is hard on the soil chemistry/texture over the long haul, (2) I have to take two passes down each row to do a complete job, and (3) although the area looks superb when I'm done, I have a hunch that I hasten the growth of new weeds by churning up the seed bank.

We do one application of Round Up in the vine rows as soon as the vines are completely dormant. We could certainly do the row middles while the vines are dormant. After bud break in March though, it's a bit risky to use post-emergent herbicides. The annual weeds, however, continue to grow through May, and then the perennial weeds take over, so a lot of weed control is necessary beyond budbreak.

Great point about the dirt throwing. I do want to keep the middles and the rows as uniformly level as possible. The guy I buy my implements from agrees that dirt throwing and build up of soil along the rows can be an issue. He says that the issue can be largely avoided, however, by removing the end discs on the front gang of the tandem. That way, the front gang won't throw dirt outside the reach of the rear gang, which then throws the dirt back in. I appreciate that the tillage along the outside edges won't be as good (with only only disc working) as in the center (where two discs will be working), but other than that, will his suggestion really work?

Finally, where can I go to see what an adjustable width "cultivator" looks like?

If your trying to conserve sub soil moisture wouldn't breaking the ground with tillage go against your goal? Why do you avoid spraying after bud break? I will admit I don't know much about wine varieties but I do know they are more subsceptible to certain sprays then Concords but I would have thought someone would have designed a spray to use with hooded sprayers if nothing else. Can you explain more about why you can't or don't spray for weed control as I am interested.

Here with concords I can spray various herbicides from spring to fall depending on conditions. This year was real wet and we had a lot of weed issues so I ended spraying for weeds 3 times during the course of the year. I didn't spray post harvest because of the weather.

What type of adjustable cultivator are you looking for? Something to reach out to the rows? The Green Hoe company might have something to meet your needs. They are located not too far from me and have been in this business for a long time. Here are some attachments that can hook on to their root hoe arm. HRH4

 

[flusher]

In another thread, I mention that I would like to disc vine rows with a small compact (NH TC15). My ideal working with for the disc is 54".

Most manufacturers make their tandem discs in either 48" or 60" working widths. I have found one make/model, however, in a 54" width, but it is an offset disc. It weighs about 500 pounds. I'm told that offets tend to pull the tractor to one side. Will I find the pull of this particular offset unit difficult to manage with a small tractor in a narrow vine row? If I can arrange it, I will certainly try out the offset before I commit to buying it.

Mfall back is a 48" tandem, but that will require multiple passes down many of the rows to get things just right. It's a 10 acre site right now, so the difference between being able to make a single pass, and having to go over the same ground again, is rather substantial.

Don't know the hp of your TC15 (it's not on TractorData.com), but my 2005 Kubota B7510HST (21 hp engine, 17 hp pto, 4WD, PS, LA302 FEL with 4-ft wide bucket) couldn't handle my old 72" off set disc (18 pans, 20" dia) even when the cut was adjusted to the lightest setting.

I pull it around with the 2008 Mahindra 5525 (54 hp engine, 45 hp pto, 2WD, PS, ML250 FEl with 6-ft wide bucket).

 

[rambler]

Finally, where can I go to see what an adjustable width "cultivator" looks like?

There are many different types of 'cultivator'.

I went to google, typed in 'ford cultivator' and clicked on 'images' to get a list of pictures, and got quite a few of them.

The farm supply stores sell a cheap, modern version that is shaped like a vee. The older Ford style is in a straight line, more shovels. You can take off or add or move around the shanks, or shovels, to come up with a combination that works for you.

Any type of tillage is going to dry the soil some. That is one of the big benifits of tillage to me - I live in a wet area.

A disk will pack & clump clay wet soils. A field cultivator is much better for us.

In sandy soil, or lighter stuff, the disk might work well. You do need to watch for ridging. Especially if you are at the exact width, so you won't be able to correct any ridging by moving over a little.

Typically an offset disk is built heavier & goes deeper - that would work & dry out the ground more than a smaller regular disk.

Here is you get after the weeds when they are just little spikes - not hardly green - a harrow, or drag section - will bust up the new seedlings & only goes an inch or so deep in the ground, keeps it black. But this will not kill off established weeds, only new seedlings.

--->Paul

 

[Riddler]

Robert, good question about the herbicides. The only product folks use around here is glyphosphate (aka Round Up). With the close vine spacing (i.e., 3' x 6'), it is risky to spray non-selective herbicides once the canopy, suckers, etc. get going. Even with hoods covering the jets, drift can still cause damage to the European grape varieties we grow out here. Besides, any visible damage to the vines can freak out the winemakers we work with. At the prices they pay, they figure (right or wrong) that they're entitled to be overly sensitive about stuff like that.

The link to the Green Hoe company is much appreciated. I took a quick look. They have some units that I'd like to investigate further.

Some folks in my area have hydraulically operated in-row cultivators that automatically dive in and out between the vines as you motor slowly down the row. They cost several thousands of dollars, which I can't quite justify at the moment with only 10 acres planted. A cultivator that can be manually operated from the tractor seat to get close to, and in between, the vines might be quite useful though, especially if it costs alot less than the automatic units.

Rambler's comment about the possible uses of a drag harrow has me thinking some more. If a drag harrow will be effective on weeds in the seedling stage, then maybe frequent use of that, with an occasional discing (or even rototilling), will do the trick. The family that owned the homestead for 100+ years before I bought it left behind some old equipment, including a couple of different spike harrows that I have used before to prepare areas for cover crop seeding. I never thought of trying them on the weeds as they emerge, but it wouldn't cost me anything to test the theory (except time and a little diesel).

Speaking of old equipment, they also left behind an old JD disc that has a single row of large disc plates angled front to back. It is configured much like the multi-blade slip plow that they also left behind. Even though the disc was left outside for a number of years, the bearings all seem to spin fine. I have never tried to use it (or the slip plow for that matter), and it isn't even obvious to me how it hooks up to the tractor. Anyway, I need to take pictures of both of these implements and post them so that folks who know can tell me how I can get them to work.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Thanks for the explanation. I was figuring you had some varieties that are delicate to the sprays.

I wasn't too fond of using the offset disc as it leaves big clumps and will require mulitiple passes if you are trying to leave a smooth aisle.

I don't know the cost of the hoe units from the Green Hoe company but there are a few of them here still. I don't really have a use for them but the guys with wine grapes have different farming practices and they use them more. If you give the guys a call there and tell them what your trying to do they will be able to help you out or possibly build something more suitable for your farm.

 

[California]

In another thread, I mention that I would like to disc vine rows with a small compact (NH TC15). My ideal working with for the disc is 54".

Most manufacturers make their tandem discs in either 48" or 60" working widths. I have found one make/model, however, in a 54" width, but it is an offset disc. It weighs about 500 pounds. I'm told that offets tend to pull the tractor to one side. Will I find the pull of this particular offset unit difficult to manage with a small tractor in a narrow vine row? If I can arrange it, I will certainly try out the offset before I commit to buying it.

Mfall back is a 48" tandem, but that will require multiple passes down many of the rows to get things just right. It's a 10 acre site right now, so the difference between being able to make a single pass, and having to go over the same ground again, is rather substantial.

Howdy neighbor! I'm on Gold Ridge. Are you nearby?

I don't think your present tractor is going to pull a disc as wide as your rows. I have a neighbor who discs as you describe, but he has 3 times the horsepower and I can hear it pulling hard. (And I think your antique equipment would require more horsepower yet.)

Your soil is probably the same as mine. You may have similar slopes too. Here's an old thread where I described my experiments in discing with only 24 horsepower. If you are real close you are welcome to come over and try pulling these discs.