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  1. #21

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    325
    Location
    upper Mich.
    Tractor
    Kubota L4610 HST with loader

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    I used the kit supplyed by long, it works ok. If you go back and look at some of the posts by Mark he explains some of the other options. when I dump the bucket at higher rpm say above 1800 rpm it some times chaters/jumps and it does dump slower, but not enough for me to look for a biger valve bank any time soon. Rember this is on a L4610 witch has a higher flow, gpm than most 9.6 gpm. Long told me that the pump would handle 11-12 gpm. I would see if they have a bigger one if you have a high flow rate.
    Rich


  2. #22

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    325
    Location
    upper Mich.
    Tractor
    Kubota L4610 HST with loader

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    forgot - the button on the joy stick is the only way to go. I would'nt even think of having a valve on the fender. Here's your 20' pole [img]/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    Rich


  3. #23

    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Posts
    160
    Location
    TEXAS, CROSBY
    Tractor
    CASE 580 BACHOE JOHN DEERE 920 AND 820 FARM-ALL CUB

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    Brings back good memories!!!!(:


  4. #24
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    0

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    What is that metal plate above the bucket?


  5. #25
    Veteran Member gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    1,786
    Location
    Delaware
    Tractor
    L4310hst-loader-hydraulic top link

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    Man that idea is just to simple! Once I read your post I just did a head slapper---why didn't I think of that! Guess that gives me another reason to drool over the 4in1 bucket that I don't have.[img]/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif[/img]
    Gordon


  6. #26

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    325
    Location
    upper Mich.
    Tractor
    Kubota L4610 HST with loader

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    Thats a spil plate that long charged a extra $35.00 for, but would'nt sell it with out. Im glad, on a L4610 if you roll it back it all the way and pick it up 8' you will eat dirt, even with it you must keep rolling it forward.
    Rich


  7. #27
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    373
    Location
    northern calif.
    Tractor
    JD-970

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    Richh, thanks for the reply on the solenoid and thumb switch. On Marks 4 in 1 bucket post, he mentions that on a 'regenerative' circuit dividing the bucket hyd circuit with the solenoid diverter valve weakens the clamping action of the clamshell rams. This is because the solenoid ends up pressurizing both sides of the clamshell in the same manner used when applying pressure to the bucket tilt rams. Did I read that right, or am I off base here. Another question. I take it that the thumb switch has two buttons, one for closing and one for opening the clamshell?? Is there a pic on the thumb switch to look at?
    Talked to Longs and they did not mention the spill plate shown in your pic. It looks like a good idea.
    And lastly, what do you think the difference in weight was between you OEM bucket and the the 4 in 1 job?
    My JD 970 has and 8gpm hyd pump so I'm hoping that will be low enough to not cause the chatter problem.

    thanks again,
    george


  8. #28
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,239
    Location
    Eastern Virginia
    Tractor
    EarthForce EF-5 mini-TLB (2001)

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    George - The "weakening" of the clamping pressure doesn't have anything to do with the solenoid valve, it's because of the way a regenerative circuit works. The solenoid valve just diverts the flow from both sides of the loader's dump circuit valve to the 4-in-1 bucket's cylinders instead.

    That brings us to your question about the thumbswitch. There's only one thumbswitch. When you push the button, all flow from the dump/roll back circuit of the loader valve is diverted from the dump/roll back cylinders to the 4-in-1 bucket cylinders. So, the way it should work is this: When you push the button and move the joystick to the roll back position, the 4-in-1 bucket closes; if you move the joystick to the dump position with the button depressed, the bucket opens. However, with a regenerative circuit, if you try to hook it up so it works this way, the bucket will close either way you move the joystick. To make it work, you have to reverse the hydraulic connections to the bucket so it opens when you move to the roll back position and closes when you move to the dump position. This makes it pretty awkward to use because you generally want to close and roll back at the same time or open and dump at the same time. Without a regenerative circuit, you can alternately roll back and close the bucket by simply moving the joystick to the roll back position and pressing and releasing the thumbswitch. Unfortunately, you have to change the valve spool in the loader to change the regenerative circuit to a non-regenerative one.

    If I remember correctly, the difference in weight between the standard 5 foot bucket and the 4-in-1 5 foot bucket is a little over 300 pounds.

    MarkC

  9. #29
    Veteran Member gordon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    1,786
    Location
    Delaware
    Tractor
    L4310hst-loader-hydraulic top link

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    The best way to go overall is to replace the spool valve that comes with the loader with a Husco that kubota also sells? You still can have some valve chatter in full dump mode? But you have full strengh in clamping and opening of the clam shell. What about regular dumping of the bucket--still the same or slower. Also in rollback you have more power or the same amount? Guess that questions me out for now---inquiring minds want to know! The four in one has been on my want list and the better informed I am the better off I will be. When I do get enough pocket jingle to have a have one sitting in front of my tractor.

    Also Mark and others you have had your bucket for awhile now how has it held up overall. Any noticable bending or flexing? Would you do anything different now that you look back at it? Bottom line is it worth the investment--I believe it is looking at it from a production standpoint and what can be preformed with it but like I said I don't have one so I'm on the outside looking in.

    Can the bucket be mounted with a quick-attach setup? To enable you to run other bobcat style implements?

    I know I said enough questions for now up top but I fibbed. Now how wide of a bucket did you guys go with to compensate for the extra weight and I guess a very important question does it cover your tire tracks?

    Thanks in advance for any help
    Still drooling for a 4 in 1
    Gordon


  10. #30
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,239
    Location
    Eastern Virginia
    Tractor
    EarthForce EF-5 mini-TLB (2001)

    Default Re: 4 in 1 bucket tip

    Gordon - First, some definitions: (You probably already know all this, but I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page because it's a little complicated.) The loader valve is a two-spool valve manufacturered by, as you said, Husco. The valve block is the casting that the two shiny chrome rods, the spools, slide in. The spools are connected to the joystick in such a way that when you move it forward and backward (or up and down, or in a plane parallel to the longtitudinal axis of the tractor, however you prefer to say it [img]/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif[/img]) the leftmost spool (as viewed by the operator when sitting on the tractor) moves out and in, causing the lift cylinders to lower or raise, respectively, the bucket. When the joystick is moved right to left (or side to side, or in a plane perpendicular to the longtitudinal axis of the tractor, however you prefer to say it), it causes the rightmost spool to move in and out, causing the bucket to dump or roll back, respectively.

    The rightmost spool (the dump circuit spool) has a normal rollback circuit, and a regenerative dump circuit. The advantage of a regenerative circuit is that the volume of flow is as much greater than the flow of a non-regenerative circuit as the volume of the sectional diameter of the rod in the cylinder. (Meaning that you can't predict exactly how much faster it will be in general because it depends on the volume of fluid displaced by the rod, which can be different sizes.) The disadvantage is that the force generated is reduced by the same amount. Generally, this isn't a problem in the dump side of a dump/roll back circuit, because dumping is gravity-assisted anyway. There's pretty much always enough force available to lift the front of the tractor (as when backdragging under pressure), so any more force isn't usable anyway.

    The problem comes in when you're trying to use the dump/rollback circuit to actuate a 4-in-1 bucket. The preferred way (from a usability standpoint), as I mentioned in the earlier posts, is to clamp with the roll back circuit and open with the dump circuit. When you try to open with a regenerative dump circuit, however, it won't work, because you can't retract a cylinder using regeneration - by definition it can only extend the cylinder because that's the only way there's a pressure differential. And extending the cylinders on a 4-in-1 bucket causes the bucket to close. Therefore, the result is that the bucket closes when you use the roll back mode (with the thumbswitch actuating the solenoid valves, causing the fluid flow in the dump/roll back circuits to be diverted to the 4-in-1 cylinders) the bucket closes, and when you use the dump mode to try to retract the cylinders to open the bucket, they extend and the bucket still closes. The result: You can't open the bucket, period.

    There are two (technically three) solutions: (I'm repeating what I said in the earlier posts here, but it's relevant) reverse the hoses so the the roll back circuit opens the bucket and the regenerative dump circuit can close it (since that's the only thing it will do anyway). Disadvantages to this approach: The 4-in-1 bucket is a royal pain to use this way (from a usability standpoint) for reasons I mentioned in the earlier posts, and just as important, the clamping force available is reduced as described in the discussion on regenerative circuits above - not a problem in dump circuits, but a big problem in 4-in-1 clamping circuits.

    The second solution: Get rid of the regenerative dump circuit. The only way to do this is to change the rightmost spool in the valve body.

    The third (technically the same as the second, except in usability) solution: Have both a regenerative and a non-regenerative dump circuit. The only way to do this, as with solution two, is to change the rightmost spool in the valve body.

    Fortunately, Husco makes a spool that has both a non-regenerative and a regenerative dump circuit. It works much like the float circuit on the lift spool: If you push the joystick to the right about halfway, you get a non-regenerative dump. If you push it past the detent and hold it (it won't stay there like it does with the float mode, for obvious reasons), you have a regenerative dump. This is, obviously, the way to go.

    Next problem: How do you get your hands on this spool? I'm afraid I can't help you with this, except to say that if you have a highly motivated dealer, he can get his hands on one through kubota. Husco doesn't sell in quantities less than a 1000 or so, so that's out. The problem in getting it from the dealer is that he most likely won't have a clue what you're talking about and you're not likely to be able to explain it to him, either (because he won't understand, not because you can't explain it). My suggestion is that you tell him you need a replacement dump/roll back spool for the Kubota L-series remote-mount loader valve. This valve comes with the combination non-regenerative/regenerative dump circuit described above. Reason: it's made to work with stuff other than just loaders, and they know you can't retract a cylinder with a regenerative circuit.

    So, to answer your questions: Yes, the best approach is to replace the dump/roll back valve spool. It's a 10-minute job, as long as you have the right size allen wrenches (the ball-type ones make the job a lot easier). And keep everything very clean. (The rest of the answers assume that you take this approach.)

    You will still have some chatter when using regenerative mode to dump the bucket, unless you forego Long's electrically actuated valves and use a higher capacity valve block. I can give you details on this, if you need them (but I think they're in the 'L4310 Enhancements' thread).

    Dumping will be just a little slower in regenerative mode unless you forego the Long valves to eliminate the chattering as mentioned above.

    In roll back mode you have the same power - no change.

    As for durability: Long makes two different versions of the 4-in-1 bucket for tractors. (They may make a huge one for very large ag-class tractors, but I'm not including that one.) The Hydro-Jaw I and II. I think (but I'm not sure) that the Hydro-Jaw I is the heavier-duty one. At any rate, there's a significant difference in the duty class and weight between them. The heavy duty one is not suitable for anything smaller than the LA-681 (1500 lbs bucket capacity) loader, in my opinion, because it's just too heavy. I've seen the lighter duty one (belonging to a friend of mine) get bent by extremely heavy usage, but I've not bent the heavy duty one at all, except for some bulges in the back of the bucket where I've rolled very large rocks into it. This bucket is much heavier duty than Kubota's heaviest bucket. My guess is that if I haven't bent it, it's just about impossible to bend it. Remember, too, I've got the 2 1/2" lift cylinders.

    Also, I do think it's an extremely good investment - I wouldn't want a tractor without one anymore, that's for sure.

    I wouldn't do anything different with the 4-in-1 than the way mine is set up right now, except that I'm planning to weld some teeth to the side of the jaw to assist in picking up logs. And I'm thinking about installing a quick-attach mount, which answers that question, though I don't have any ideas yet on the best way to do it.

    I went with a 5 foot bucket. The 6 foot one is just too heavy, in my opinion. That means it doesn't cover the tire tractors, at least not my tire tracks. [img]/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Sorry for the verbosity - hope it helped.

    MarkC

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