4 in 1 bucket tip

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark,

First let me say thanks again for your extensive (and on-going) efforts to help some of us understand these things.

But now I find myself confused by what looks to me like a contradiction between these 2 quotes from your posts ( I know I could easily be missing something here!).:

"....reverse the hoses so the the roll back circuit opens the bucket and the regenerative dump circuit can close it (since that's the only thing it will do anyway). Disadvantages to this approach: The 4-in-1 bucket is a royal pain to use this way (from a usability standpoint) for reasons I mentioned in the earlier posts, and just as important, [[[the clamping force available is reduced as described in the discussion on regenerative circuits above - not a problem in dump circuits, but a big problem in 4-in-1 clamping circuits."]]]

All rollback circuits are non-regenerative (not nearly enough force is generated by a regenerative one for the necessary breakout force), so [[[the closing force (if you use the rollback circuit to close the 4-in-1 bucket) will always be whatever is generated by the pressure of the pump and the size of the cylinders on the bucket. So, the speed/force tradeoff issue isn't (an issue, that is).]]]

From the bracketed parts -

"big problem", or "..not an issue"??

...or am I comparing apples and oranges, somehow?

Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - The answer to "'big problem' or 'not an issue'" is neither, or both, depending. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Sorry to be so confusing. Here's what I meant:

In the first quote, I'm talking exclusively about the dump circuit, not the rollback circuit. So, there's much less force available from a regenerative dump circuit, which is a big problem if you use a regenerative-only dump circuit to close a 4-in-1 bucket, i.e. weak clamping pressure.

In the second quote, I'm talking exclusively about the rollback circuit, not the dump circuit. Since there's no such thing as a regenerative rollback circuit, there's no issue with speed. What you get is what you got. (Unless you replace the hydraulic pump to get more flow, but that's another topic altogether.)

Therefore, you can see why I said opposite things - I was talking about opposite circuits - regenerative in the case of dump circuits, and non-regenerative in the case of rollback circuits. I think. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark, thanks for the quick response...I think I'm slowly getting some of this.

Does " no such thing as a regenerative rollback circuit" mean that when "timing" the JD with the regen. "lockout", that there is nothing to lock-out on rollback, so the time should be the same, whether regen. is locked or not? (whereas on dump, there could be regen., if not locked-out, and the speed would be greater because of it...and locked-out, i.e., "no regen." would be slower - as it in fact was, in my test at the dealer)?!

Larry

 

[markcg2000]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry,

I got the parts manual and the Tech manual for my 790 for Christmas /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif and I've been going over the hydraulic sections extensively. The valve controlling the raise/lower and the valve controlling the dump/curl are different types (within the single SCV setup):

Raise/Lower has a raise,neutral,lower and float. Float is enabled by pushing all the way beyond "lower".

Dump/Curl has curl,neutral,dump and regenerative dump. Regen kicks in when pushing beyong "dump". Regen can be blocked (made not reachable) by the positon of a metal tab on the joystick mount.

Since there is no regen setting, there can be no speed differance in the raise/lower function.

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - Correct. As Markcg2000 pointed out, there is no regen circuit on the rollback side. (At least, I've never seen one. I'm not extremely familiar with JD stuff, but I can't imagine they do it any differently, and from Markcg's post, he confirms that. A regen circuit in the rollback mode would be dangerous because, if you were lifting something heavy and accidentally got it into regen, it could dump suddenly, due to not having enough force available to hold the bucket up, much less roll it back.)

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Thanks, guys!

MarkCG, I will assume the 4700 works the same way as the 790, untill I get my tech manual (ordered yesterday) to check it out. There are minor differences between my "owner's" and your "tech" manuals, in that the term "curl" is not used ("rollback" is), and there is no connection (in print) between the words "REGEN", and "dump".

There is mention that REGEN is "available" only in position "C" ( of the lock-lever)...but that is all that is said...nothing about which function uses it, or what joystick-motion activates it.

Based on your tech-manual, and Mark C's description, I am going to assume(unless/untill my tech-manual says otherwise) the only REGEN function would be "dump"... and then only when "unlocked".

MarkC,

So my understanding now is this:
I put the thumbswitch-controlled diverter-valve in the pressure line to the rollback-dump cylinder (downstream from the scv) ... the diverter then sends the pressure to the r/d cylinder, unless the thumbswitch is activated, in which case the pressure will be sent to the bucket-jaws close/open cylinder.

At what point does the "return" line from the jaw cylinder rejoin the system? (does the diverter valve "pass-through" the "return" fluid into the original rollback/dump return? Or is there no "return connection at all to the diverter valve, the "jaw" return being simply "T"-connected to the r/d return hose?)

Re. "chatter":

Have you had any conversation w/Vance @ Long, concerning the "improvements" he told me had been made in the valve-kit supplied w/the 4in1? Does this relate to "chatter" problems?

Without re-reading all the 4in1 posts, I seem to remember mention of "higher-capacity" valves being a possible solution ... is this something I need to sort out, in order to put this setup together "right" the first time?

(with much appreciative supplication and grovelling
Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - The "solenoid operated diverter valve" is really two valves, not one.

The hose from the dump circuit on your loader valve goes into the input port of one diverter valve, and the hose from the rollback circuit goes into the input port of the other one.

The non-energized output from the dump circuit diverter valve goes to the extend side of the rollback/dump cylinders, just like it did before you installed the diverter valve. Likewise, the non-energized output from the rollback circuit diverter valve goes to the retract side of the rollback/dump cylinders.

The energized output from the dump circuit diverter valve goes to the retract side of the 4-in-1 bucket cylinders, while the energized output from the rollback circuit diverter valve goes to the extend side of the 4-in-1 bucket cylinders.

I did talk to Vance a couple times after I got my setup fixed, but I don't know what they ended up doing to fix their problems. At one point they were talking about putting a bushing into the dump circuit valve to restrict the flow somewhat to help minimize the chatter, which I told them was a "kluge", not a real fix. I think they ended up using larger valves, which is the only right way to fix the problem, but I'm not sure.

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Mark,

Thanks for breaking it down for me.
I'll try to give you a breather while I digest all this for awhile

Larry

 

[MChalkley]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

Larry - No problem at all. I'm here to help, not confuse. (I just thought I specifically say that, in case there was any doubt. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif)

MarkC

 

[dmccarty]

Re: 4 in 1 regen. \"solution #4?\"

I finally got to the propery to work today. I was supposed to be out there Friday afternoon but The Place That Pays The Bills got in the way.

So here is the result of my HomeWork...

I ran two tests, one at 1700 RPM and the other at 2500 RPM. I did not use a watch to time this, just One Mississippi, Two Mississippi... I repeated each test a couple of times to check the numbers. And my Mississippi count.

With the bucket fully UP to move fully down took 9 seconds with the FEL hydraulic lever in the second position. I think that is regen. Non regen, the top position to do the same movement took 7 seconds. At 2500 RPMs the tests took 6 and 7 seconds. Which is kinda strange

From Full Down to full UP. The opposite of the last test. It took 7 seconds regardless of regen or not regen. At 2500 RPS it took 5 seconds, again regardless of regen or not regen.

To open or close the 4n1 bucket at 1700 RPMS took 3 seconds. At 2500 RPMS it was a bit faster, maybe 2.5 seconds.

I'll have to go back to see what I wrote last week about the FEL curl/dump/open/close operations but here is what I did and immediately wrote down on paper! So assuming I can read and write, A big assumption, here is how MY 4n1 works.

FEL control right dumps the bucket.
FEL control left curls the bucket.

FEL control right with button press opens the 4n1 bucket.
FEL control left with button press closes the 4n1 bucket.

Hope this helps....
Dan WithAPulledBackMuscleAggravatedByUsingTheChainSaw McCarty