Revisiting the PTO-generator question

[Spencer]

Trev, Carol brand (division of General Cable) makes what they call "Gen-Cords". Their 220 volt version has a twist lock on one end to plug into your generator and then they have a box on the other end that has both 110 volt and 220 volt outlets in it. Grainger sells them but at a high price. I have attached a picture from Graingers website to show you what I am talking about.

 

[Spencer]

Here are the specs for the various Gen-Cords that Grainger sells.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Point 1, magnetic circuit breakers will work equally well for cvercurrent protection regardless of feed dorection.
Point 2, the $3.00 computer cord with 6 outlets will work well for generator distribution. You are better served using the more expensive version with it's own circuit breaker.
Point 3, the number of things you truly need to run from a genset in an emergency is small, and other than yout furnace, most of them can be run off an extension cord.
Point 4, Most furnaces require about 5 amps. You can easily set your furnace up with a plug and receptacle for normal operation so you can just pull the plug and run the furnace from a cord in an emergency situation.
This stuff ain't rocket science.
A generator will tolerate a lot of current imbalance, but runs far better & cooler with a balanced load. You can spend lots of money on fancy controls & meters, OR, you can buy an Amprobe type meter on Ebay for about $30, and employ it to balance your load.
Load balance is rarely proper or equal in a residential service because the people installing services rarely consider load balance.
The most difficult starting loads will be sump pumps and furnace blowers because of the type motor used in those applications. Well pumps and other motors that are capacitor start put far less load on the generator when starting than sump pumps do.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

HUH...? Are you sure about #1. ??

 

[MossRoad]

I agree with all of your points except for <font color=blue>Load balance is rarely proper or equal in a residential service because the people installing services rarely consider load balance</font color=blue> I think most electricians try to balance the loads. Most installations that I have seen seem to have the heavy 110 appliances split almost evenly between sides. Aren't all 220v appliances automatically load balanced since they pull 110 from each leg?

Also, I got the impression that Bob wanted to accomplish two things:

1. Install a transfer switch in his house, so all he would have to do is plug in the generator, fire it up and flip one switch to get it going. That requires two things; a transfer switch and a power cord.

2. Be able to help out the neighbors without re-wiring their houses. That's where I think a power distribution panel would be better than a couple of computer-type power strips.

<font color=blue>The generator has one 50 amp 220 outlet, two 10 amp 110 outlets</font color=blue>

<font color=blue>Would my two 10 amp outlets have enough power to run a fridge, freezer, and furnace, for example, without exceeding the amperage?</font color=blue>

That might be pushing it. My freezer and fridge each pull 8 amps at start up and my furnace pulls 5 or 6. That's 21 amps. Add the sump pump you mentioned, and it'll pop the breaker.

By using a panel box with multiple breakers fed from the 50amp circuit on his generator, he could run more circuits than he could from the two 10 amp 110 outlets. A panel of this type could have several 110 and 220 breakers. It wouldn't cost that much to put together and would be very handy.

But you are right. This ain't rocket science and he could get by in an emergency with two power strips and extension cords for a while.

And I like your idea of wiring your furnace with an electrical cord into an outlet instead of directly into the breaker panel. Then it would be just a matter of unplugging from the outlet and plugging into the generator. That is good advice to anyone that doesn't want to go with a transfer switch. You could do that with any appliance, I suppose? I'd probably use twist locks, just to make sure the cords didn't get knocked out accidentally.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Am I sure? Well, let me think, I been to the other side of the world and back installing gensets and making them work. I been connecting wires to make things work for the best part of 48 years. My License says Mine Safety & Health Administration Electrician.
YUP, I'M SURE!
NOTE, Magnetic breakers, not all breakers.
By the way, I own 13 gensets and service about a hundred more. So far, I have yet to blow one up. Now, would you like to discuss how we run a Cat genset in a trailer outputting 480 volts 3 phase into a distribution grid art 113kv? Or, would you like to discuss dead field paralelling gensets?
I dam sure ain't wearin an orange apron at Home Depot, and I do know what I'm talking about.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Geez.......take it easy. It was only a question? Like are you sure? Some things that were done 48 years ago are done differently today. Have you in all your years of experience ever tried or watch someone try to backfeed a 200 amp magnetic breaker with enough current to force it to trip?
If so did it work?....How many times did it work?...How many times can it be reset before it fails the next time..and it will fail....or was it the (other kind of breaker)?

Do I want to dicuss 480 volt 3 phase gensets to a 110kv grid with you? Yes I would, but the key word here is dicuss, not fight with you.! I don't believe the poster (trev) is trying to hook this type of genset?
Yes, I am one of those guy,s that works on 113kv feeders, 33kvfeeds, 4160v, 2300v, 440v, all the way down to low voltage, 24v, fiber optics, and plc's. When working on high voltage, and have the convience to deenergize the feeder, the feeder conductors are bled to ground and the grounds are left on till the job is complete so someone who might have been given the wrong info from ....(who ever) doesn't back feed me.
Home genny's are nice for who ever wants them, but please for my safety, do it the right way and use a properly wired transfer switch..!! How you want to wire up the rest in your own home, I don't really care as long as you and your family are safe.
Franz....I truly hope that you do have a Great Holiday.!
Byeeeeeeeee George.

 

[Trev]

<font color=green>The generator has one 50 amp 220 outlet, two 10 amp 110 outlets
Would my two 10 amp outlets have enough power to run a fridge, freezer, and furnace, for example, without exceeding the amperage?</font color=green>

<font color=blue>That might be pushing it. My freezer and fridge each pull 8 amps at start up and my furnace pulls 5 or 6. That's 21 amps. Add the sump pump you mentioned, and it'll pop the breaker.</font color=blue>

After looking more closely last night, I see that I mis-spoke slightly. There are two 110 receptacles, and underneath them is a single label that says "20 Amps." I guess I was thinking 10 each, but I suppose maybe it's 20 amps collectively.. i.e., one could perhaps put out the 20 amps if the other wasn't doing anything. Either way, it seems a shame to waste the potential of putting out the full 70 amps the genset is capable of.. so something else would probably work better.

One thing puzzles me. I would think, given the risk to the power company linemen if someone miswires something like this, that the power company would bend over backwards to help folks out when it comes to installing gensets. It might even pay them in the long run, in terms of both safety and customer relations, to provide the switches needed and whatnot. After all, we'll only need these setups if they fail to provide the power we pay them for. So it would be a win/win situation if they did something like this for the tiny percentage of customers who actually have generators. Just thinking out loud here.. but maybe I should call the power company and see what stance they take about these things?

Thanks again for all the advice, folks, and sorry to have created the record monster thread! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bob

 

[MossRoad]

Some power companies will install a device in the meter base that when you plug in your generator, it de-energizes the power from the line and when you pull the plug, it puts you back on the grid. Mine doesn't, but I've seen them on the internet somewhere?

As far as bending over backwards to help someone install a generator, if you owned a utility company would you help someone run their house on someone else's product? If you did it too well, they might not need you. Remember, most utilities are "for profit" companies. They will come out and disconnect your power for your electrician to install the transfer switch.

 

[Trev]

<font color=blue>Some power companies will install a device in the meter base that when you plug in your generator, it de-energizes the power from the line and when you pull the plug, it puts you back on the grid. Mine doesn't, but I've seen them on the internet somewhere?</font color=blue>

Might this conceivably be more cost-effective than having the electrician wire up a transfer box?

<font color=blue>As far as bending over backwards to help someone install a generator, if you owned a utility company would you help someone run their house on someone else's product? If you did it too well, they might not need you. Remember, most utilities are "for profit" companies. They will come out and disconnect your power for your electrician to install the transfer switch.</font color=blue>

I see your point, but even if we have a generator we are still paying customers. It's not like they give us a break on our bill whenever they fail to provide power (at least, not to my knowledge.) They could buy devices in bulk, cheap, provide an instruction sheet for the electrician, protect their people, protect their customers (from freezing, etc.) Seems like a good deal all around. I dunno, it was just an idea. Now you know why I'm not the CEO of some company! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif