I contract mow! I use a bushhog at the moment. I can't even start to explain to you the break downs I have had recently. So my first purchase was a new tractor. 40 pto horse power 6ft wide rear tires and I need a new mower now. First off i would like to say that I HAVE read the fail mower posting. Holly crap lots of them!. So even tho I have done this I would like to ask the question. Should I go flail or not? The dealers I talk too "ALL OF THEM" tell me no way will I get away with leaving the rotory mower. A flail will not work for you. Well crap I see State road mowing the crap out of stuff in this area and all that I read on here says yes go flail. Whats your recomendations? size and brand? I have almost, and I really mean almost am ready to buy the Caroni Flail 6ft (i would like bigger). My jobs are mostly clean. Meaning I have been mowing them for sometime not trash, sometimes 3 to 4 foot tall grass and a little brush. I'm in WV and Northern Va. I'm concearned about the speed of mow with a flail. I don't have a bunch of money to spend either so help me out make some suggestions for me.
Contract Flailing
- Thread starter bullwest
- Start date
JoeinTX
Platinum Member
I would not.
The rotary cutter (shredder) is the simplest, cheapest machine you can run for that type of work. Across the board. Versus a flail: it is cheaper to purchase, has fewer moving parts and potential failure points, and it's cheaper to maintain and operate.
If you're experiencing a rash of mechanical issues with a basic shredder, with potential failure multiplied by several factors, how are you going to improve upon that and end up better money-wise with a more expensive flail? If your jobs are "mostly clean" what is causing all of the mechanical problems?
The rotary cutter (shredder) is the simplest, cheapest machine you can run for that type of work. Across the board. Versus a flail: it is cheaper to purchase, has fewer moving parts and potential failure points, and it's cheaper to maintain and operate.
If you're experiencing a rash of mechanical issues with a basic shredder, with potential failure multiplied by several factors, how are you going to improve upon that and end up better money-wise with a more expensive flail? If your jobs are "mostly clean" what is causing all of the mechanical problems?
leonz
Super Member
Good evening,
If you can afford a wider flail mower you will save time and labor. there are many good used flailmowers available for sale through tractor house.
Not leave a rotary cutter to knock brush down, thats a laugh!!
Did you get to Iron horses posting about his first and last experience with a rotary cutter and how his first use could have killed some one at the time in the house far away from his mowing job????????, they neglected to tell you they make more money on a rotary cutter sale and the rotary cutter or rear rotary finish mower can only mow using half the mowers cutting edge at any time versus the full width of a flail mower rotor in slice cut.
Regarding your mower needs the issue is simply one of the quality of cut and your customers desired results.
The grass rotor will take the brush down to sod for you and control the invasives quickly.
Will you be doing any rehabilitation work requiring dethatching to overseed and later spread grass seed, lime and or gypsum? If not you will not need a unit that has dethatching blades or can mount them.
The other issues are the hydraulic side shift and the knive type; the duck billed grass knives/ hammers will last longer than the shovel type of grass slicers but cost more than the standard grass slicer Y blade pairs but the duck billed hammers give you a rougher cut.
The more you mow with a grass slicer rotor wit 4 rows of grass slicers the better the turf will be AND you can mow when its wet with few issues.
The grass rotor wil require a bit more energy but will breeze through it a second time and leave little residue. The two row rotors also do a good job but leave a bit of a waffle pattern when mowing.
The John deeres have 3 row slicer grass rotor or at least they did have anyway.
I would check with Ken Sweet and ask him about his lines of wider cut flail mowers as he is a participating sponsor of the forum in good standing.
He may be able to find you a used wider flail mower in good conditon as well.
Ken also ships from his warehouse as well.
Spend some time on the phone with Ken regarding your needs and he will help you.
Please understand I only want you to succeed and not fail.
Once you see the turf and how little clippings are left you wil be amazed and if you have seen many of the pictures you see the owners results with no rooster tails or missed brush.
Never get away from a rotary cutter thats a laugh.
"Once You Go Flail You Never Go Back"
Edit: Lets just clarify a few things:
A flail mower is stronger more heavily built mower in narrow
and wide widths and Verticuts at a much higher speed
than any rotary cutter.
A flailmower is also a precision piece of machinery with a much
safer safety record than rotary cutters.
JoeinTX
Platinum Member
"Never get away from a rotary cutter thats a laugh..."
Point. Game. Match.
Read my above again.
Point. Game. Match.
Read my above again.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
I do commercial ROW mowing as well as several large acreage tracts. We've tried high end flails on several occasions. (Owned one, demo-ed 3 others..) They do an excellent job in many conditions, but require MUCH slower ground speeds in conditions that are very typically found in my line of work. They also require MUCH more HP in what I'd describe as "adverse conditions". As an example, a tractor we routinely use to pull a 15' bat wing (rotary) struggled with an 8' flail in high weeds. Before that draws a comment on "inexperienced operators", ect, I'll say this. We had a factory rep on hand while we used the flails. They were unable to rationalize the disadvantages of the flails. There was also NO comments offered on the way we used them, leaving my with the impression our results were typical.
When I demo-ed those flails, I was high on the idea of promoting them as a way of setting my business apart from the pack. It didn't take long to realize they simply made me uncompetitive in the market I had to operate in. This isn't Utopia...It's a tough economic environment. Operating at a disadvantage is a mistake, no matter what one would LIKE to do.
Initial cost (for higher quality units) is much higher than a heavy duty rotary cutter (per foot). Routine maintenance was off the charts compared to the relatively low cost involved with a rotary cutter.
Cost to mow an acre with a rotary cutter is fairly constant in varying conditions. Cost per acre with a flail varies wildly, and tends to lean towards VERY high per acre cost in the conditions commercial mowing generally presents. That EITHER makes bids unattractive, OR results in low profit margin. I don't know about you, but I'm in business to make money. A charming sales pitch doesn't feed the bulldog.
Much is made of the "safety factor"....Too much in fact. Flails aren't 100% safe, neither is a rotary cutter. With proper precautions, BOTH can be used successfully. There is a higher incidence of accidents with rotary mowers due in fact to the HUGE disparity in numbers of flails vs rotary cutters. This is one instance where numbers (as they're used in sales propaganda) DO NOT tell the true story.
You'll get the "sales pitch" (and associated propaganda) from "someone" on here who has a vested financial interest in selling flails, but speaking strictly as someone who's used BOTH enough to understand the assets AND liabilities of each, I'm holding steady with rotary cutters. There simply is not enough margin of profit in ROW mowing these days to afford a MUCH more expensive mower. (basing on long term use and maint, initial cost, and volume of billable work performed) You'll find flails more commonly in use by municipalities, where cost vs return on investment isn't a consideration. I have no interest in promoting OR criticizing EITHER, just a financial interest in operating MY BUSINESS in the most profitable (but still safe and efficient) manner.
3 years ago, we demo-ed 2 Alamo commercial grade flails. While mowing highway right-of-ways, BOTH required repairs that would have resulted in substantial expense, while mowing a stretch of road we routinely mow with Bush Hog bat wing rotary cutters. (Due to hitting exposed rock hidden under downed weeds) Quite simply put, rotary mowers will take FAR MORE punishment, do a more than satisfactory job, and do it at a much lower operating cost. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply ignoring/misrepresenting the facts to promote their own agenda.
Flails do an admirable job in select conditions. If you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you mow, fine..... The conditions that caused problems for the flails I saw represent approx. 75% of my business.
In the final analysis, the difference in quality of cut was minimal, if at all, when mowing in like conditions with a flail mower vs a "bush hog". A flail will obviously leave a better "lawn" than a bush hog in "lawn" conditions, but that isn't what is being compared in this thread anyway..... And with this type of mowing , 24 hours after the fact, it's virtually impossible to distinguish which type of mower was used in rough cut conditions.
Another valid point of comparison....Size of mower....I run a fleet of 15' bat wings. To get that width of cut, the typical set-up is to run a rear mounted 3-point flail, PLUS a side mounted hydraulic driven wing flail mower. The hp required, as well as the weight of the tractor serving as a power unit is substantially more demanding for the flails. (and cost goes up as you might expect) Rotary cutters can be run at lower engines speeds than the rated pto rpms with minimal drop off in quality of cut. Flails require (according to manufacturers) full, constant pto rated rpms. We found that recommendation to be "gospel". That's a critical difference when mowing in tight confines or when dealing with vehicle traffic only inches away. It's mandatory we be able to throttle back in certain situations.
BTDT, loaded the shelled flail mowers on a truck and sent 'em back to where they came from with no regrets. I compete against several other mowing contractors for my work....NONE....NOT ONE of them use flails. They simply DO NOT pencil out against a rotary cutter under the typical contract mowing conditions MOST of us are dealing with.......
Flail mowers have their niche. Making claims that they're THE answer to every question tends to make me discount ANY claims being made in their favor.
When I demo-ed those flails, I was high on the idea of promoting them as a way of setting my business apart from the pack. It didn't take long to realize they simply made me uncompetitive in the market I had to operate in. This isn't Utopia...It's a tough economic environment. Operating at a disadvantage is a mistake, no matter what one would LIKE to do.
Initial cost (for higher quality units) is much higher than a heavy duty rotary cutter (per foot). Routine maintenance was off the charts compared to the relatively low cost involved with a rotary cutter.
Cost to mow an acre with a rotary cutter is fairly constant in varying conditions. Cost per acre with a flail varies wildly, and tends to lean towards VERY high per acre cost in the conditions commercial mowing generally presents. That EITHER makes bids unattractive, OR results in low profit margin. I don't know about you, but I'm in business to make money. A charming sales pitch doesn't feed the bulldog.
Much is made of the "safety factor"....Too much in fact. Flails aren't 100% safe, neither is a rotary cutter. With proper precautions, BOTH can be used successfully. There is a higher incidence of accidents with rotary mowers due in fact to the HUGE disparity in numbers of flails vs rotary cutters. This is one instance where numbers (as they're used in sales propaganda) DO NOT tell the true story.
You'll get the "sales pitch" (and associated propaganda) from "someone" on here who has a vested financial interest in selling flails, but speaking strictly as someone who's used BOTH enough to understand the assets AND liabilities of each, I'm holding steady with rotary cutters. There simply is not enough margin of profit in ROW mowing these days to afford a MUCH more expensive mower. (basing on long term use and maint, initial cost, and volume of billable work performed) You'll find flails more commonly in use by municipalities, where cost vs return on investment isn't a consideration. I have no interest in promoting OR criticizing EITHER, just a financial interest in operating MY BUSINESS in the most profitable (but still safe and efficient) manner.
3 years ago, we demo-ed 2 Alamo commercial grade flails. While mowing highway right-of-ways, BOTH required repairs that would have resulted in substantial expense, while mowing a stretch of road we routinely mow with Bush Hog bat wing rotary cutters. (Due to hitting exposed rock hidden under downed weeds) Quite simply put, rotary mowers will take FAR MORE punishment, do a more than satisfactory job, and do it at a much lower operating cost. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply ignoring/misrepresenting the facts to promote their own agenda.
Flails do an admirable job in select conditions. If you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you mow, fine..... The conditions that caused problems for the flails I saw represent approx. 75% of my business.
In the final analysis, the difference in quality of cut was minimal, if at all, when mowing in like conditions with a flail mower vs a "bush hog". A flail will obviously leave a better "lawn" than a bush hog in "lawn" conditions, but that isn't what is being compared in this thread anyway..... And with this type of mowing , 24 hours after the fact, it's virtually impossible to distinguish which type of mower was used in rough cut conditions.
Another valid point of comparison....Size of mower....I run a fleet of 15' bat wings. To get that width of cut, the typical set-up is to run a rear mounted 3-point flail, PLUS a side mounted hydraulic driven wing flail mower. The hp required, as well as the weight of the tractor serving as a power unit is substantially more demanding for the flails. (and cost goes up as you might expect) Rotary cutters can be run at lower engines speeds than the rated pto rpms with minimal drop off in quality of cut. Flails require (according to manufacturers) full, constant pto rated rpms. We found that recommendation to be "gospel". That's a critical difference when mowing in tight confines or when dealing with vehicle traffic only inches away. It's mandatory we be able to throttle back in certain situations.
BTDT, loaded the shelled flail mowers on a truck and sent 'em back to where they came from with no regrets. I compete against several other mowing contractors for my work....NONE....NOT ONE of them use flails. They simply DO NOT pencil out against a rotary cutter under the typical contract mowing conditions MOST of us are dealing with.......
Flail mowers have their niche. Making claims that they're THE answer to every question tends to make me discount ANY claims being made in their favor.
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leonz
Super Member
I have no vested interest in selling or promoting flail mowers so lets get that out of the way.
A standard PTO driven flail mower with a grass slicer head with 3 or 4 rows of knives is belt driven where many of the Alamo industrial units have hydraulic drive for either the rotor(s) or Boom or bot, these units require oil radiators, fans and oil filters, where a simple flail shredder requires greasing and checking the belts and scoop knives and knive hangers.
I will never own rotary cutter as they are an inferior mower and in using iron horses excellent example of what can go wrong, will go wrong with his first time use of a rotary cutter which could have very well killed an innocent homeowner hundreds of feet away from his brush mowing location and to him I say "good on ya old mate".
"I" simply tell members that they should contact Ken Sweet as a simple courtesy as he is an advertising sponsor for the TractorBynet forum and as such he carries two lines of excellent flailmowers. Ken Sweet will also tell you the same thing.
Hammer flails or the "Duck Bill shovel" hardened flail knives cut much rougher but provide an very good cut for brush and grass and have a long service life.
Our esteemed local department of transportation has been taunting the ditch banks with their flailmowers this week in our area for thier annual mowing in ernest.
As a result they are leaving a very poor mowing job because they are traveling too fast while mowing leaving many rooster tails of uncut brush which is also common with rotary cutters when traveling too fast in the forward direction
(been there done that)the same would occur with a rotary cutter at that travel speed while cutting verges and brush.
There are many excellent brands of towed flail shredder choppers which are used for shredding corn stalks, sugar beet topping, cotton stubble, and sugar cane stubble.
These flail choppers are designed to either be turned and towed with dolly wheels or simply towed with the suppleid guage wheels mounted in the rear of the mower. these shreders use a high in number count wide shovel knive which shreds the entire width of the flai chopper cut with the aid of the flail shredders rotor which rotates at a very high revolution per minute.
These flail shredders are also used to cut alfalfa and other hays back to the ground before winter to prevent issues with winter kill and plant damage to the following years hay crop.
Thses flail shredders could be successfully employed replacing bat wing mowers as a mowing implement in highway mowing in wide areas.
You simply see fewer flail mowers in use because they are more expensive to purchase as an implement as the rotary cutter is a mass produced item like an automobile. Like a good snow blower, a flail mower will outlast the prime mover and can be used on another prime mover with almost no modification required.
Using Europes safety standards for mowers they use few if any rotary cuttes in mowing along highways such as the autoban and other municipal use due to the noise created by rotary cutters.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
Show me where I mentioned your name as the "vested financial interest in selling flail mowers".....I sure don't see your name attached to that comment. Or did I just strike an exposed nerve?
I see so few flail mowers used in my line of work because they're a poor choice in most cases....Far to delicate for my application, far too expensive in terms of initial purchase price AND in terms of maintenance cost (which makes for non-competitive bidding...If I can't get the work, I wouldn't need ANY mower....!) and far too slow relative to rotary cutters. I'm happy for you being able to find ONE instance where someone believes them to be a better alternative. In the same vein, I can rattle off about 100 different commercial mowing contractors here that feel otherwise. And myself? I'm not the type to intentionally sabatage any chances of my business turning a profit in order to validate the opinion of someone who apparently knows very little about what I do for a living. You can keep your flail mower. I'll settle for high quality work done at a reasonable profit.
Maybe you failed to read the paragraph in my post where TWO demo flail mowers were maintenence horror stories in a matter of days. These were supposedly the best commercial flail mowers Tiger had to offer. (Tiger outfits mowing rigs for commercial applications.Tiger Boom Mowers http://www.tiger-mowers.com/triple_gang_flail_extreme_duty.php) I can't afford to waste time toying with a mower that's simply too delicate for my needs. Nor can I invest hour after hour doing repairs when a rotary cutter doesn't suffer the same level of breakdowns under the same conditions.
Belt driven mowers in the conditions I mow in.....PLEASE....That would be a laugh riot! Belt driven mowers are OK for the casual "home owner"/user, maybe even light duty commercial lawn applications, but not quite an intelligent choice for a continuous duty commercial mower used in what is best described as "extreme duty service".
I'm at a loss as to why you're unable to do a decent mowing job with a rotary cutter. Unlike yourself, I don't comment on what I don't have enough details to make an informed comment. We've consistantly been able to do an excellent job mowing at ground speeds nearly double that of the maximum speeds we were able to work with while using the flail mowers.
Some of the flails we demo-ed WERE mechanical drive and NOT hydraulic driven. No difference in performance....They sucked up hp, and were limited to VERY slow operating speeds relative to the performance of our batwing rotaries. .
I live less that 50 miles from Mr Sweet. However, I don't feel compelled to throw his name around, nor do I think it's appropriate to speak on his behalf. By all indications, he's more than capable of speaking FOR HIMSELF....And I don't believe it's a good practice to put words in someone elses mouth, especially so when doing so without their consent. And by the way, he also sells several lines of rotary cutters. Unlike yourself, he apparently realizes there's a viable market for EACH.
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IslandTractor
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2005
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- Location
- Prudence Island, RI
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- 2007 Kioti DK40se HST, Woods BH
I'm a flail owner and I like it a lot but I'm going to side with Joe and FarmswithJunk on this one. The main point is that flails do cost more to operate and, for heavy duty versions, also to purchase. I don't have FWJ's experience comparing mowing speeds and for my purposes the flail is just as fast as my Woods Brush Bull but I am not mowing commercially and I haven't compared them in heavy weeds.
Flails are clearly safer in areas where houses, vehicles and pedestrians are within a few hundred yards. That to me is the main selling point along with the superior cut. For a field the cut quality may not matter and if you are away from vehicles and pedestrians etc the safety factor doesn't matter either.
I just managed to break my first bush hog blade which disabled the mower completely until I fixed it. It took about an hour to switch out both new blades (thank you Woods for the simple pin system:thumbsup
. With a flail you lose blades much more frequently but almost never need to stop mowing when you lose one or two or three. In the past five years I have broken exactly one bush hog blade and probably have lost almost two dozen flail blades (two at a time with clevis=$12 each time plus about 15 minutes) in our rocky part of the world. Loss of blades and time spent in maintenance of a flail mower is simply far greater than what it takes to keep a bush hog running and for a commercial operator that would be a serious consideration.
For my purposes I use both. I use the flail the most (most mowing is within 400 yards of humans) but I opt for the bush hog when backing into thick unknown brush and sometimes for the first annual mow when I've forgotten where the hidden rocks are.
Flails are clearly safer in areas where houses, vehicles and pedestrians are within a few hundred yards. That to me is the main selling point along with the superior cut. For a field the cut quality may not matter and if you are away from vehicles and pedestrians etc the safety factor doesn't matter either.
I just managed to break my first bush hog blade which disabled the mower completely until I fixed it. It took about an hour to switch out both new blades (thank you Woods for the simple pin system:thumbsup
. With a flail you lose blades much more frequently but almost never need to stop mowing when you lose one or two or three. In the past five years I have broken exactly one bush hog blade and probably have lost almost two dozen flail blades (two at a time with clevis=$12 each time plus about 15 minutes) in our rocky part of the world. Loss of blades and time spent in maintenance of a flail mower is simply far greater than what it takes to keep a bush hog running and for a commercial operator that would be a serious consideration.For my purposes I use both. I use the flail the most (most mowing is within 400 yards of humans) but I opt for the bush hog when backing into thick unknown brush and sometimes for the first annual mow when I've forgotten where the hidden rocks are.
A few years ago my state used flails to mow the highways.
Now, they contract the highway mowings out to atleast 4 different contractors and they ALL use rotary batwings. I talked to the truck driver of one contractor who cuts from TX to VA and I've seen atleast 10 of their 60-75hp tractors/batwings stored at the local tractor dealer. That tells me what works in the cut throat world of ROW mowing, cheap, reliable and fuel eff.
If the specs on the contract call for a flail, then go for it. If your bidding against a batwing, remember the mowings are going for cheap these days. :thumbsup:
Now, they contract the highway mowings out to atleast 4 different contractors and they ALL use rotary batwings. I talked to the truck driver of one contractor who cuts from TX to VA and I've seen atleast 10 of their 60-75hp tractors/batwings stored at the local tractor dealer. That tells me what works in the cut throat world of ROW mowing, cheap, reliable and fuel eff.
If the specs on the contract call for a flail, then go for it. If your bidding against a batwing, remember the mowings are going for cheap these days. :thumbsup:
beppington
Elite Member
Discussing a flail vs rotary speed comparison, I think you're comparing apples & oranges: I think a rotary cutter generally cuts the material & drops it to the ground, & does so with a somewhat rough looking result since it cuts with a blunt blade ... whereas a flail mower cuts with a sharper blade, lifts the cuttings up & over the drum, repeatedly cutting them, resulting in finer cut pieces & a better looking mown result.