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  1. #31
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    Mahindra 7520, Mahindra 3215HST, Case 580 extendahoe, Case 310 dozer, Parsons trencher, Cat D6,

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Flow restrictors or needle valves make a HUGE improvement in being able to fine adjust hydraulic top and side links easily, especially the 2" diameter units.

    As far as being to course (too fast) a light touch makes that a lot better.
    Brian
    Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by jinman View Post
    Does a boat tip fore/aft or side-to-side? Are you tipping my boat? Hey! Airplanes pitch up and down and roll side-to-side. Maybe we could call it pitch-n-roll. I think I'll call mine tip-top because that sounds like the best. . . maybe not.
    Oh, Ohh...
    I used to say; pitch, roll & yaw in the "Marine" context.
    Recent fun 'n games on sail boards have changed my vocabulary a bit, since it is possible and often desirable to have the hull "rolled" to windward.

    I think the T n' T was coined as a trade name by a vendor a few years ago and has crept into common usage.
    (the way that Kleenex & Tampax, etc. have)
    It might have been Carter... ? or is that Carter n' Carter ?

    Anyway, I am still of the opinion that for LEARNING you need to set the top and side links, run 50 to 100 ft, evaluate the results, make SMALL adjustments, try again.
    I don't see a HUGE ISSUE with climbing down off the tractor a few times to do this.
    I do think you will get lumpy bumpy results if you can't keep your hands off the hydraulics for more than 5 ft at a time (-:

    I have a hydraulic top link, but (so far) have resisted the hydraulic side link.
    I know I can set an implement parallel to the tractor and with a manual side link I can go out and when I need a crowning or ditching cut I can crank some known number of turns on the side link. I can keep track of that in my head and later recover to parallel with the tractor.
    BTW, it is rarely a lot, since on each pass the tractor tips ("rolls" ?) to the last cut.

    Now, a T n' T with a GOOD POSITION CONTROL ?
    Say; 5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5 Yeah, THAT could interest me (-:

    A few years ago someone did post about how they had built a set up with two hydraulic side links and a way to "zero to both fully retracted" and run them both down/up together from there if needed.

    I like the idea of floating a side link, that would get me away from my chain side links that I sometimes use to allow independence between tractor and implement.

  3. #33
    Silver Member
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    Aug 2010
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    110
    Location
    Norman, OK
    Tractor
    Mahindra 3316HST

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by RealJimbo View Post
    Do cows tip?
    Yes, but rarely more than 10%. Cheap bastards....

  4. #34
    Super Star Member
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    Feb 2008
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    somewhere usa
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    Deere 110tlb, 4520, x749, x758, L130

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Oh, Ohh...
    I used to say; pitch, roll & yaw in the "Marine" context.
    Recent fun 'n games on sail boards have changed my vocabulary a bit, since it is possible and often desirable to have the hull "rolled" to windward.

    I think the T n' T was coined as a trade name by a vendor a few years ago and has crept into common usage.
    (the way that Kleenex & Tampax, etc. have)
    It might have been Carter... ? or is that Carter n' Carter ?

    Anyway, I am still of the opinion that for LEARNING you need to set the top and side links, run 50 to 100 ft, evaluate the results, make SMALL adjustments, try again.
    I don't see a HUGE ISSUE with climbing down off the tractor a few times to do this.
    I do think you will get lumpy bumpy results if you can't keep your hands off the hydraulics for more than 5 ft at a time (-:

    I have a hydraulic top link, but (so far) have resisted the hydraulic side link.
    I know I can set an implement parallel to the tractor and with a manual side link I can go out and when I need a crowning or ditching cut I can crank some known number of turns on the side link. I can keep track of that in my head and later recover to parallel with the tractor.
    BTW, it is rarely a lot, since on each pass the tractor tips ("rolls" ?) to the last cut.

    Now, a T n' T with a GOOD POSITION CONTROL ?
    Say; 5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5 Yeah, THAT could interest me (-:

    A few years ago someone did post about how they had built a set up with two hydraulic side links and a way to "zero to both fully retracted" and run them both down/up together from there if needed.

    I like the idea of floating a side link, that would get me away from my chain side links that I sometimes use to allow independence between tractor and implement.
    While not position control an easy fix to your adjustment concerns would be an inclinometer mounted on your boxblade. You could see from the tractor seat when it is level and adjust to the specific slope in degrees left or right.

    I use top n tilt for grading on a regular basis, being able to adjust on the fly is necessary if you do much grading. Haven't seen many graders lately with hand crank blade adjustments (except in a museum).

  5. #35
    Super Star Member
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    Feb 2008
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    somewhere usa
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    Deere 110tlb, 4520, x749, x758, L130

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by MtnViewRanch View Post
    Flow restrictors or needle valves make a HUGE improvement in being able to fine adjust hydraulic top and side links easily, especially the 2" diameter units.

    As far as being to course (too fast) a light touch makes that a lot better.

    Seat time helps more than anything imo. Also I don't use cylinders with check valves either, don't need them and you can't feather them as you would plain cylinders.

    If you do have check valves you will need the flow restrictors to compensate for the jerky movement caused by them needing to overcome the pressure..

  6. #36
    Elite Member
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    Mahindra 7520, Mahindra 3215HST, Case 580 extendahoe, Case 310 dozer, Parsons trencher, Cat D6,

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Steve, two of the biggest reasons that you are able to control your cylinders so well are that
    A: you have experience using the top and tilt cylinders and
    B: you have 3" dia cylinders.

    I have no extra flow control on my 75hp tractor with 17GPM hyd flow with 3" cylinders, and I have no problem controlling those. My 32hp tractor has 2" cylinders and is almost impossible to fine adjust the tilt cylinder without some sort of flow control. I happen to have needle valves on that tractor and they are basically down as far as they can be without being closed. It doesn't take much fluid to get a 2" cylinder to jump and even a lesser amount to move it at a controllable rate.

    For beginners to have a better chance at being able to control their top and tilt cylinders, some sort of flow control is is needed for tractors with 2" dia. cylinders IMO. Helps out a lot with 2 1/2" dia. cylinders and is nice to have with the 3" dia. cylinders.

    From what I have seen, all the OEM top and tilt kits have 3" dia cylinders. But the OEM "TnT" sets are not offered for all models and as the tractors get smaller it gets harder to have 3" cylinders for a multiple of reasons. I try to match up the cylinder size to the loader lift cylinder size, so far that seems to be working out.

    Just my
    Brian
    Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

  7. #37
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    jinman's Avatar
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    Texas - Wise County - Sunset
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    NHTC45D, NH LB75B, Ford Jubilee

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by MtnViewRanch View Post
    Steve, two of the biggest reasons that you are able to control your cylinders so well are that
    A: you have experience using the top and tilt cylinders and
    B: you have 3" dia cylinders.
    I have pretty good fine adjustment with my DPOCV toplink, but it comes from a very light touch on my remote lever. When hooking my toplink up to an implement, I can make it just creep along by reaching up over the fender and feathering the remote lever. I have 0.030" restrictors inline, but the control comes more from the remote valve being just slightly cracked open. Brian really hit it with "A:" above. I have lots of experience.

    Brian, I know you are in the design and manufacture of TnT products. Recently, I'm very tempted to do some experimentation with these CMC Manufacturing products. I have one of these in my Power Hoist bedlift on my Kawasaki Mule and it seems bulletproof. Check out the specs for the various units at the bottom of the linked page. The basic power units go for around $375 retail. I'm not sure of wholesale pricing.

    The nice thing about these are that you gain the strength of true hydralics in an electrical controlled unit not requiring remote hydraulics. They're also pretty small and you don't have to allow room for hose fittings. These have been used as trim actuators on boats and are very strong and reliable even in the marine environment. These actuators are not fast, but they would be perfect for TnT. I don't think they would work well for powering a grapple, but for TnT, they should be viable product for a turnkey setup less than $600 with no added hydraulics to the tractor, making them even more flexible.
    Jim


  8. #38
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    JD

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Skimmed the replies and it seemed to me the biggest problem is uniformity of aggregates.

    I can't contribute to the TnT, but when they grade good roads, they don't deal with a large variation in agg.

    I recall going 25 miles down a road in Ontario several years in a row with large variation and it gets pretty bad after a few vehicles.

    Can't put lipstick on a pig and make it look good enough to kiss.

  9. #39
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallguy1000 View Post
    Skimmed the replies and it seemed to me the biggest problem is uniformity of aggregates.

    I can't contribute to the TnT, but when they grade good roads, they don't deal with a large variation in agg.

    I recall going 25 miles down a road in Ontario several years in a row with large variation and it gets pretty bad after a few vehicles.

    Can't put lipstick on a pig and make it look good enough to kiss.
    I agree to some extent. When going over what is a good road that does not have a lot of, or sharp curves in it, very little adjustment needs to be made. But adjustments should often be made at intersections because the intersecting road will often go off at a different slope or angle.

    When dealing with what I call a normal private road, one that is made with the surrounding materials and not bought and hauled in from another source, it seems like a lot of those roads have a higher maintenance schedule and typically will require more implement adjustment as the road gets graded.
    Brian
    Top and Tilt Kits by Fit Rite Hydraulics

  10. #40
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Location
    South Central Iowa
    Tractor
    TYM 330 HST with FEL

    Default Re: Help me understand TnT-how does it help grading?

    T and T allows you to perfect your adjustments that you wouldn't otherwise make because it is too much hustle to get on and off the tractor and tweak it. It also helps you make adjustments when the condition changes.

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