fire pump

[offroader]

I want to setup a portable fire pump to pump out of a lake and about 20' uphill and will need 150'-200' of hose. I hear that 2" hose is too hard to handle so I am considering the Honda WH15 or WH20 with 1-1/2" hose. I am getting different info on reducing the pressure hose size (from 2" to 1-1/2") as some say that will damage the pump?? (I guess it makes sense when using a high pressure pump) That is why I am considering the WH15 with 1-1/2" hose but with that much length I'm not sure about friction/pressure loss. I have seen a few different pumps with a higher pressure rating than the Hondas or higher head rating but without going over my budget ($1000) that may be tough. Anybody think the WH15 is enough pump for that much hose?

 

[chim]

There are some very knowledgeable people here, and perhaps a few engineers in hydraulics. There could also be someone who thinks he knows much more than he really does. It's almost impossible to sit at your keyboard and tell the difference. I'd be more comfortable having an answer from the manufacturer. Moving some water from point A to point B for a garden is one thing. If you want to fight a fire it's another.

 

[groundcover]

I have the high pressure Honda 1 1/2" set up for irrigation . I ran 1 1/2 poly pipe around the property. You will lose about a half pound of pressure per foot of elevation, the friction loss isn't too bad with the poly pipe. If you go the hose route bigger is better !

 

[leonz]

I want to setup a portable fire pump to pump out of a lake and about 20' uphill and will need 150'-200' of hose. I hear that 2" hose is too hard to handle so I am considering the Honda WH15 or WH20 with 1-1/2" hose. I am getting different info on reducing the pressure hose size (from 2" to 1-1/2") as some say that will damage the pump?? (I guess it makes sense when using a high pressure pump) That is why I am considering the WH15 with 1-1/2" hose but with that much length I'm not sure about friction/pressure loss. I have seen a few different pumps with a higher pressure rating than the Hondas or higher head rating but without going over my budget ($1000) that may be tough. Anybody think the WH15 is enough pump for that much hose?

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What makes you think a centrifugal pump will be damaged from pumping water???????????????????????????

All the fire pump is is a circulator!!!!!

It all depends on the total head pressure you are going to have in dealing
with a self priming centrifugal pump.


I am assuming you want fire protection in your part of the Cascades????


Dont forget the entire water column in that discharge pipe is in dire need of
wanting to go backwards through the pump volute and back down the suction
hose to the strainer and back into the lake where it came from.

We do not know what the suction head is or the length of the
discharge head is to obtain the total head length,we must have that
figure or at least you do.


Using your inch and a half pipe hose figure with 115 gallons per minute flow and 240 feet of total head
you will have at least 90 feet of head loss and the pumping exercise becomes useless.

You need:

1. small deep well submersible pump

SO:


the parts need to be laid out like this:


Deep well pump carried by a PVC pipe raft

Pipe nipple
1 inch TEE
1 inch pipe plug used to drain water from first length of poly pipe
1 inch barbed fitting for black or blue poly pipe
1 one hundred foot roll of poly pipe
1 schedule 40 metal one inch pipe to barbed fitting
1 one inch female/female check valve
1 one inch galvanised steel pipe nipple
1 schedule 40 metal one inch TEE
1 one inch metal pipe plug to drain upper section of poly pipe

After this you can connect sprinklers or fill tanks for fire protection.

you can pump many hundreds of feet with a submersible pump with very low amperage
as the pump will operate until you unplug it and you can run a battery of sprinklers
if you are keeping the land wet.

The deep well submersible has a check valve in it already so it will not lose it prime
unless is becomes stuck open. the second check valve prevents the loss of the water
in the second length of one hundred foot of poly pipe.

 

[offroader]

A centrifugal pump would NOT be damaged by pumping water... That part of the question was about restricting the flow. I Spoke with an "expert" at a well known online store that sells fire pumps who told me that you never want to reduce the pressure hose size on a high pressure centrifugal pump. (it seems like a relief valve on the pressure side would eliminate any problem). We know that this type of pump should not be deadheaded and that water cannot compress and a high pressure pump like this does not have an unloader. I've seen people say that they DO use a reduced size pressure hose on a high pressure pump. That's why I asked.

==============================================================================


What makes you think a centrifugal pump will be damaged from pumping water???????????????????????????

All the fire pump is is a circulator!!!!!

It all depends on the total head pressure you are going to have in dealing
with a self priming centrifugal pump.


I am assuming you want fire protection in your part of the Cascades????


Dont forget the entire water column in that discharge pipe is in dire need of
wanting to go backwards through the pump volute and back down the suction
hose to the strainer and back into the lake where it came from.

We do not know what the suction head is or the length of the
discharge head is to obtain the total head length,we must have that
figure or at least you do.


Using your inch and a half pipe hose figure with 115 gallons per minute flow and 240 feet of total head
you will have at least 90 feet of head loss and the pumping exercise becomes useless.

You need:

1. small deep well submersible pump

SO:


the parts need to be laid out like this:


Deep well pump carried by a PVC pipe raft

Pipe nipple
1 inch TEE
1 inch pipe plug used to drain water from first length of poly pipe
1 inch barbed fitting for black or blue poly pipe
1 one hundred foot roll of poly pipe
1 schedule 40 metal one inch pipe to barbed fitting
1 one inch female/female check valve
1 one inch galvanised steel pipe nipple
1 schedule 40 metal one inch TEE
1 one inch metal pipe plug to drain upper section of poly pipe

After this you can connect sprinklers or fill tanks for fire protection.

you can pump many hundreds of feet with a submersible pump with very low amperage
as the pump will operate until you unplug it and you can run a battery of sprinklers
if you are keeping the land wet.

The deep well submersible has acheck valve in it already so it will not lose it prime
unless is becomes stuck open. the second check valve prevents the loss of the water
in the second length of one hundred foot of poly pipe.

 

[leonz]

I never said it would be damaged.

I dont have nickel invested, I worked for a fire truck builder
piping Hale and Waterous fire pumps in fire trucks.

As I said previously you have too much total head pressure
and the pump will not overcome it to deal with
trying to use a fire pump in this manner.

I took the time to explain to you why it would not work.

Deep well submersibles were developed for pumping
light sweet crude oil many years after pump jacks were used to
pump water and oil.


A deep well submersible has pump stages which act as a turbine
that aid in lifting water and pushing it with little effort that is why
I suggested it and the poly well pipe will cost you less money anyway
as compared to hose for a fire pump.

Please, please, please do not depend on someone that is selling you a product
over the phone to save money as you will be sadly dissapointed and perhaps
lose a valuable piece of property.

If you have the time buy a book about water pumping or basic hydraulics.



I don't need to make a sale for a commision.

If you do not believe me contact the Hale or Waterous fire pump companies.

 

[boggen]

googling honda wh15 come across.....
Honda WH15 Model Info | 1.5" High Pressure Water Pump | Honda Pumps
manual... http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/pe/pdf/manuals/31YB7721.pdf

not even enough info to calculate head / pressure losses. not even a chart dentoting max pressure to GPM (gallons per minute) or anything of the sorts.

generally as you load up the pump with pressure. the less GPM it will produce.

i would imagine with a small gas engine. there is most likely a cut off point between to much pressure pump has to go against and stalling motor out.

most pumps love to pump water out of them... and most pumps HATE to suck water up into them. more so on centrifuge pumps.

============
with you stating fire pump. as in wanting to put out a fire in an emergency. i get a little skiddish. time between actually grabbing pump grabbing hose, connecting it up and starting pump. may mean fire department called via 911 is already on site and dealing with the issue.

if you were installing gas pump and say a hydrant for hook up. it might be a different story. but in this case... you would more likely bury the hose between pump and hydrant, in which case. i would encourage you to go with a larger size diameter pipe. between pump and hydrant. and then if need be reduce down at hydrant for hose.

with above said, would encourage you to contact local fire department. and they should be able to point you in correct direction, and helping you figure out pipe / hose length and inside diameter size of the pipe / hoses. and make sure you have a beefy enough pump to deal with fires.

 

[the old grind]

I'm using a HFT 2" gas fueled pump (~6 hp, <$300) with as much as 150 ft of re-purposed 1 1/2" fire hose and 25' of 2" suction. It seems that the source's surface is the point from which vertical head is calculated, esp w/a centrifugal, and I'm ok with 12' - 15' VH there. Flow is noticeably reduced from 50' - 100' - 150', etc as TDH approaches its reasonable limit but is still considerable. With the three 50' sections my GPM is perhaps less than 100/min. (timed fill of 55 gal drums) No nozzle, just kinking the outlet end as though trying to stanch the flow, I can 'spray' this way say 60' w/50' of hose, 50' w/100', and 40' at best w/150' connected.

It takes about 15-20 min to fetch from the barn and connect pump & hoses (using golf cart & 3' x 5' garden trailer). Suction hoses are strategically placed, tucked discreetly into wildlife buffer areas but easily accessible, and inspected/cleared several times/season) Suction screens are in 5 gal buckets and rock-weighted. Priming is the real chore when one is in a hurry, having to raise the outlet for several feet above/beyond the pump to purge enuf air to get the flow started. The hoses are very handy but easily kinked when laid out, as one would expect. (I fold to store vs roll up)

I'm not in the least suggesting that this minimal setup would suit the OP, esp having never used all 200' of 1 1/2" outlet hose on hand. Just clarifying the shortcomings of my pump capacity/hp, vert and TD heads, and 'roll-up' hoses. There are surely better pumps, as suggested by those who really know this stuff, so I'm suggesting what wouldn't work so well. (btw, No worries drawing from 15+ ac/ft of pond, so water source is not a problem .. for me)

Never thought of this as fire prevention for the house/barn, but one pickup is 50' from the house and 150' of outlet would reach to the barn door. Hopefully readers will note that all aspects of this (admittedly 'econo') system are perhaps 'one size too small' for the OP's situation and see the need to go big when it matters. tog

 

[leonz]

The above is but one more reason to use a small deep well submersible pump
on a raft if his lake access is unrestricted.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

What about a floating pump? The ones our FD uses on our brush trucks are awesome. It's got a little 2 stroke motor and 1.5" outlet. Shuts itself off if it tips or runs out of water and only needs about 6" depth to sit in. At idle, its as almost as much work to hang on to the nozzle on 50' of hose as it is on a 2 1\2" line. At full RPM, some of our guys can't safely hold the nozzle with only 50' . We've pumped 1800 ft all day long in the past without issue. I generally try to keep my guys with 300 ft or more of line when running it just to make it easier to handle.

Also they are very fast to deploy. Hook up the line (if its not preconnected), start it and push it out in the lake. That's it. No priming or draft issues.