Front-End Loader Trying to understand the FEL

[Highsmith]

I read a thread recently that stated "hydraulics love HP", but the specs are identical for the JD 5103, 5203, 5303 using the 512 FEL.

Another thread on here mentions the different geometries for different FELs affects where the FEL is most powerful. So it is hard to compare FELs across brands. So if my application of interest is digging/prying things out of the ground (cleaning up 2 old homesites/private junkyards), which would be the best tractor/loader combo? I would need more force down low.

 

[BarryinMN]

The best digging tool is a backhoe.

Absent that, the breakout force rating on the loader is the prying force. A loader is a primarily lifting and scooping already loose material tool.

Ag tools are lighter duty, lower priced versions of industrial loaders. I wouldn't slam the bucket into a solid pile with my ag tractor but do not think twice when on my industrial TLB.

A smaller bucket or pallet forks can get the load closer to the loader arms for max breakout or lift force.

I built a lifting tongue for 3 pt use and lifted an end of a 9K lb shipping container for leveling. Put the load right at the arms. One time use but beat digging, cribbing, spacers, and hydraulic bottle jacks.

 

[Z-Michigan]

As noted, breakout force is what you need for prying, and for lots of it you would be better off with a loader/backhoe than a farm type loader. The Kubota L48 and Deere 110 would be in that category, along with lots of larger machines that are in a whole new price category.

As for hp needs, the FEL and other hydraulic items care about pressure and gallons per minute flow rates. Most farm tractors have very similar system pressures - in the range of 2500 to 2800psi (compared to modern construction equipment that may operate at 4000psi or more). However, flow varies greatly, and that's the main distinguishing point. Most compacts will have 10gpm or less; utilities usually in the 10-15gpm, with larger ones pushing close to 20; and large farm tractors maybe 30gpm. Compare this to skidsteers which usually have at least 20gpm and maybe 35-40 with high flow options.

If the loader is sized for the tractor it will work well with the tractor's hydraulic output. So the FEL on a 50hp utility will work well on 10-13gpm. The difference is that you will have either less force or slower operation than you would have with more gpm - and which one you have is an engineering decision by the FEL engineer. On the Deere's you mentioned I believe they all put out about the same gpm. If you compare to a Deere 5x25, you will see that the 5225 and 5325 have 13gpm and the 5425/5525 jumps to 18gpm. On farm tractors the flow rate usually correlates to the engine hp, but this is just an engineering decision; you can choose to put more engine power into hydraulics, and that's what you see on skidsteers and the loader/backhoes I mentioned, which are in the 40-50hp range but have much more flow than 50hp ag tractors.

Quite a lot of information. What it boils down to is that if you are looking only at ag tractors, the differences are fairly small. The Deere 522 and 542 loaders have a bit more breakout force than similar offerings from Kubota, while most other makers don't advertise breakout force so you can't easily compare. The loader/backhoes have significantly more breakout force. One anomaly is my Deere 5105/522 FEL combo, which due to an engineering decision has more breakout force than usual for its class, something over 4000lbs. I'm not sure if this is of much practical importance. I do remember reading another thread where an M7040 owner was complaining that his LA1153 FEL didn't have nearly as much breakout force as the loader on his Kubota L48, meaning that he couldn't pry out pavement with it nearly as well. But again, the ag loaders aren't really designed for that use.

With your other posts that I've read, I think if you could afford it you would be well served with one tractor for field work - maybe a 2wd cab tractor over 50hp - and a separate loader/backhoe for the extensive renovations you have ahead.

 

[texasjohn]

When a FEL can no longer lift, the reason is that the relief valve has popped.

So, first thing is to determine the hydraulic pressure at which the relief valve pops. When you supply enough weight to equal this pressure, that's all she wrote as far as lifting goes. Factors that go into this total weight include (speaking relative to my Kubota):

Weight of FEL
weight of bucket
weight of toothbar
weight in bucket and WHERE the weight is focused
height of bucket
amount of curl that bucket has

Note that curl, height of bucket, location of load all play with the geometry of the aparatus and affect the actual pounds that can be lifted. In my case, and also reported by other TBN members, my hydraulic relief valve was set below factory specifications. Thus my lift weight was impaired. I took it to a dealer and a shim was inserted to increase the pressure allowed before the valve would pop. I observed a significant increase in usable lift weight.

I also need to assure you that typically a FEL which is hung in the ground on a rock or root can and will lift the rear wheels off of the ground. Thus, loaded tires/tire weights and added rear counter balance weight is needed to be able to handle this situation and deliver full lift weight to the FEL.

To answer your question... there is no such thing as "best"....

I will tell you that a FEL is FAR more useful that I ever imagined. The stronger one you get, the better you will like it. This means as many HP as you can justify. If I recall correctly, you are moving to several hundred acres and other posts have recommeded you get at least 50 HP.

Knowing that I consider my 50ish HP equipment and matching FEL to be the minumum that I could use, I recommend you get nothing smaller.

 

[RoyJackson]

I read your profile. You're moving to a property of 525 acres. That's huge! And, you have a property of 3+ acres.
How much of these two properties do you need to clean up? What do you intend to use the tractor for after the clean up is completed?

For the clean ups, you may wish to rent or lease a dedicated backhoe or hire an owner/operator with a 'hoe. You may even consider buying a used machine and selling it when you've completed the heavy work.
I'm pretty sure a true commercial backhoe would do the job more efficiently then a CUT or utility tractor with a loader. The backhoe would have the weight and power to remove most anything.

Would you still need a full sized tractor (such as the large Deeres you described in your post) after the clean up work is done?

Once you've answered those questions, you can make a better decision.

Good luck!