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  1. #11
    Veteran Member
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    Kubota L3830, Ford Golden Jubilee, 1939 Sears Economy, Polaris Ranger 400, Honda Foreman 450 ES, 2004 Dodge Diesel 3500

    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Good to hear that you went with kubota. Kubota is a top notch company... and their success proves it!

    Kioti appears to copy Kubota on everything regarding tractors... even the paint scheme.

    I think you'll enjoy the Kubota 500 for your uses. Let us know how you like it. My friend just bought one on Friday as well! Runs like a sewing machine. Very refined! Post some pics if you get a chance!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaPerk View Post
    Good to hear that you went with kubota. Kubota is a top notch company... and their success proves it!

    Kioti appears to copy Kubota on everything regarding tractors... even the paint scheme.

    I think you'll enjoy the Kubota 500 for your uses. Let us know how you like it. My friend just bought one on Friday as well! Runs like a sewing machine. Very refined! Post some pics if you get a chance!
    Kubota sued Kioti over their color a few years back. I never did hear what the outcome was.

    Misfire

  3. #13
    Epic Contributor murphy1244's Avatar
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    Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y

    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
    kubota sued Kioti over their color a few years back. I never did hear what the outcome was.

    Misfire
    I'm sure they lost just like JD did. Your entire thread smells of Hit job now.Have you called mother Kobota?
    Murph

  4. #14
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    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by murphy1244 View Post
    I'm sure they lost just like JD did. Your entire thread smells of Hit job now.Have you called mother Kobota?
    Hit job? Have you lost it? I responded to PapaPerk's copying statement with a fact. I specifically stated that I did not know the outcome so as to make sure that it DID NOT appear as a bashing on my part.

    I expected someone would come along with the outcome. I did not expect the personal attack for making a factual statement.

  5. #15
    Epic Contributor murphy1244's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
    Hit job? Have you lost it? I responded to PapaPerk's copying statement with a fact. I specifically stated that I did not know the outcome so as to make sure that it DID NOT appear as a bashing on my part.

    I expected someone would come along with the outcome. I did not expect the personal attack for making a factual statement.
    Have you called mother Kobota? Give us the link to the lawsuit.
    Murph

  6. #16
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    Deere

    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    That's too bad to hear for Kioti, but I'm sure you'll be happy with your new 500. When are we getting some pics?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by Martian View Post
    That's too bad to hear for Kioti, but I'm sure you'll be happy with your new 500. When are we getting some pics?
    Probably not until we get a little sun here. It's not exactly photography weather right now.

    I'm working on a first impressions thread, which I hope to post in a day or two. I think it may surprise some people.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
    I was about to pull the trigger on the Mechron over the RTV500 when I decided to call Kioti USA and ask them directly who now makes the CVT. I had been staring at their brochure, and Kioti's toll free number was right there, and I thought, who better to ask than Kioti themselves? Just about anyone else, it seems.
    There is no reason whatsoever that a manufacturer would be obligated to reveal who makes subassemblies for them. In some cases, they may do so for marketing reasons (e.g. a Dodge Ram pickup with Cummins engine badge on side). In other cases, you have no prayer of finding out the info directly from the company. There are valid reasons for obfuscating who supplies components.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
    The call was answered on Kioti's end by a lady who turned out to be a switchboard attendant and/or receptionist of some sort. I informed her that I was a potential buyer with a technical question regarding the Mechron. She put me through to another lady. I again stated that I had a technical question regarding the Merchon. She promptly and rather curtly told me to contact my dealer. I explained that the dealer was over 100 miles away and requested that she put me in contact with an individual who could answer a technical question regarding the Merchon.
    Trained technical people cost money to employ -- a lot of money. There is a really good reason your call is not simply forwarded to the head of RTV R&D at Kioti -- that person is doing the things that the company anticipates will add value, and dealing with your call is not one of those things. Kioti corporate probably does in fact have a bunch of technical people dedicated to dealing with customer issues, and these issues are relayed from customers through Kioti dealerships. Otherwise, random people -- including competitors -- are calling up Kioti R&D asking "who did you guys buy subassembly XYZ from?".

    If you want more technical people on staff, attending to these types of queries, their total employment cost is going to be incurred in the end product. It costs -- including direct salary, benefits, training, and plant overhead -- about US$200K/year to have trained/experienced technical staff in the USA answering questions on the phone. The more people that you add, the higher the aggregate loaded cost of the employees and therefore the higher the burden on a per unit basis. So to maintain adequate operating margin the overall cost of the end product goes up. And that increased product cost can lead to reduced sales in a highly competitive market, can't it?

    Let's analyze this concept financially in more depth. Your lost sale, at current tractor industry pricing margins, equates to about 6-8% of the purchase price. So, which is larger... 6-8% of your purchase price, or US$200K? I highly suspect the latter. If the "cost" of your lost sale is less than US$200K, then Kioti "won" economically -- that is, they didn't spend US$200K to make a tiny fraction of that back on a sale to you. If you were running a business, would you do that? For how long could you do that? Now of course you could argue that if they lost "N" sales, not just your one sale, then it could make a difference. True. But 1) it's hard to know the effects ahead of time, and 2) this support burden really should be on the dealers and the conduit into Kioti corporate.

    If you had in fact gotten a technical person on the phone, I suspect that you would still have been frustrated by the fact that he/she would not have provided you with the name of the CVT manufacturer. Sometimes supplier arrangements are complicated, and covered by a variety of non-disclosure agreements.

    So, in this instance, better sources of information might have included the dealer and probably google. Surely there is someone who has spent some quality time with the CVT unbolted and has a forum post or writeup on the repair thereof, and where replacement parts were sourced from. Did you try that approach?

    n.b.
    #1)
    By the way I have no skin in this game. As disclosure I own a tractor built by a company starting with a K. It's not a Kioti. But the economics and information presented above is the case at ANY company -- whether you are building tractors or PC's or iPhones.

    #2)
    I'm an engineer at a large company. I don't expect the "switchboard person" (LoL) to direct calls to me so I can answer random questions from folks. If someone I do not personally know ends up on the phone asking me to identify a supplier, I would politely inform them that I can not provide such information. If they press on, I would politely inform them that the end of the kite string is theirs to hold.

    #3)
    I called Corning Inc once, because I had an issue with the glass panels in my wood stove cracking over and over again. The folks at Vermont Castings were nice but they could not solve the problem, other than to sell me new glass. That resulted in more cracked glass. So I figured I would call a big name "tier 1" float glass manufacturer and have them determine what the best glass for my application would be. I called Corning and I got bounced around -- in the process I talked with about 7 people in the Corning glass products group, and the last guy I talked to really took interest in my problem -- so much so that he sent me 6 pieces of glass (which he personally prepared and cut) to try out in my application. Those 6 pieces are in still in my stove, more than 10 years later. Did Corning "win" using this unconventional approach?

    Wrooster

  9. #19
    Epic Contributor k0ua's Avatar
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    Kioti DK35se Hydrostat

    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    Quote Originally Posted by wrooster View Post
    There is no reason whatsoever that a manufacturer would be obligated to reveal who makes subassemblies for them. In some cases, they may do so for marketing reasons (e.g. a Dodge Ram pickup with Cummins engine badge on side). In other cases, you have no prayer of finding out the info directly from the company. There are valid reasons for obfuscating who supplies components.


    Trained technical people cost money to employ -- a lot of money. There is a really good reason your call is not simply forwarded to the head of RTV R&D at Kioti -- that person is doing the things that the company anticipates will add value, and dealing with your call is not one of those things. Kioti corporate probably does in fact have a bunch of technical people dedicated to dealing with customer issues, and these issues are relayed from customers through Kioti dealerships. Otherwise, random people -- including competitors -- are calling up Kioti R&D asking "who did you guys buy subassembly XYZ from?".

    If you want more technical people on staff, attending to these types of queries, their total employment cost is going to be incurred in the end product. It costs -- including direct salary, benefits, training, and plant overhead -- about US$200K/year to have trained/experienced technical staff in the USA answering questions on the phone. The more people that you add, the higher the aggregate loaded cost of the employees and therefore the higher the burden on a per unit basis. So to maintain adequate operating margin the overall cost of the end product goes up. And that increased product cost can lead to reduced sales in a highly competitive market, can't it?

    Let's analyze this concept financially in more depth. Your lost sale, at current tractor industry pricing margins, equates to about 6-8% of the purchase price. So, which is larger... 6-8% of your purchase price, or US$200K? I highly suspect the latter. If the "cost" of your lost sale is less than US$200K, then Kioti "won" economically -- that is, they didn't spend US$200K to make a tiny fraction of that back on a sale to you. If you were running a business, would you do that? For how long could you do that? Now of course you could argue that if they lost "N" sales, not just your one sale, then it could make a difference. True. But 1) it's hard to know the effects ahead of time, and 2) this support burden really should be on the dealers and the conduit into Kioti corporate.

    If you had in fact gotten a technical person on the phone, I suspect that you would still have been frustrated by the fact that he/she would not have provided you with the name of the CVT manufacturer. Sometimes supplier arrangements are complicated, and covered by a variety of non-disclosure agreements.

    So, in this instance, better sources of information might have included the dealer and probably google. Surely there is someone who has spent some quality time with the CVT unbolted and has a forum post or writeup on the repair thereof, and where replacement parts were sourced from. Did you try that approach?

    n.b.
    #1)
    By the way I have no skin in this game. As disclosure I own a tractor built by a company starting with a K. It's not a Kioti. But the economics and information presented above is the case at ANY company -- whether you are building tractors or PC's or iPhones.

    #2)
    I'm an engineer at a large company. I don't expect the "switchboard person" (LoL) to direct calls to me so I can answer random questions from folks. If someone I do not personally know ends up on the phone asking me to identify a supplier, I would politely inform them that I can not provide such information. If they press on, I would politely inform them that the end of the kite string is theirs to hold.

    #3)
    I called Corning Inc once, because I had an issue with the glass panels in my wood stove cracking over and over again. The folks at Vermont Castings were nice but they could not solve the problem, other than to sell me new glass. That resulted in more cracked glass. So I figured I would call a big name "tier 1" float glass manufacturer and have them determine what the best glass for my application would be. I called Corning and I got bounced around -- in the process I talked with about 7 people in the Corning glass products group, and the last guy I talked to really took interest in my problem -- so much so that he sent me 6 pieces of glass (which he personally prepared and cut) to try out in my application. Those 6 pieces are in still in my stove, more than 10 years later. Did Corning "win" using this unconventional approach?

    Wrooster
    Excellent well thought out post.

    James K0UA
    James K0UA

    Kioti DK35se hydrostat with 2 QA buckets, 48 inch. King Kutter Rotary Cutter. 750 lbs ballast box. Loaded tires, Construction Attachments SSQA Lightweight Pallet forks. EA 50 inch single lid "wicked" Grapple. Satisfied Everlast PA160 welder owner NRA Life Member How to add a link to a post . Best way to search TBN .


  10. #20
    Elite Member bullbreaker's Avatar
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    1/3 PARTNERSHIP IN BOTA 7060 (PLANT NURSERY OPERATION) SOLD MY PERSONAL L3400 DT BOTA

    Default Re: One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

    I'am not ragging or picking on Kioti's but just an observation. I was watching RFD-TV the other nite and a Kioti commercial came on. About halfway in commercial they sald : Look out bobcat,look out deer here comes a or the Kioti. They showed a deer and bobcat animal in woods. I could not understand reasoning behind them (Kioti) beating their own equipment up , "Look out bobcat". I tried to retrieve commercial from You-Tube and post but could not find it.Guess not in there.
    Just like a couple years ago in a farming type magazine(I honestly forget which one) and its been mentioned before here on TBN. I saw a Kioti advertisement with a pic of a PHD hooked up to one with a guy leaning on it in pic like trying to give it more downforce.
    I'am sure this is not first company ever to undermine or have bad advise or none when it comes to something like I've mentioned but you would have thought somebody up on top of these company's makeing decisions would have caught it.
    Once again I'am not Kioti bashing,I believe they have come a long way in a short time and make good products.
    Just wanted to share my observatiions from watching commercial and magazine add years ago.

    Boone
    Last edited by bullbreaker; 08-13-2012 at 10:34 PM.
    2 CHRONICLES 7 : 14 (KJV)

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