One Call To Kioti USA Was All It Took To Convince Me Not To Buy The Mechron

[murphy1244]

They should just put this thread in the Kabota forum since theyre are the only ones posting now...

 

[bullbreaker]

Kubota sued Kioti over their color a few years back. I never did hear what the outcome was.

Misfire

The 登ther Orange Tractor. Kioti. | OrangeTractorTalks

Boone

 

[SPYDERLK]

There is no reason whatsoever that a manufacturer would be obligated to reveal who makes subassemblies for them. In some cases, they may do so for marketing reasons (e.g. a Dodge Ram pickup with Cummins engine badge on side). In other cases, you have no prayer of finding out the info directly from the company. There are valid reasons for obfuscating who supplies components.


Trained technical people cost money to employ -- a lot of money. There is a really good reason your call is not simply forwarded to the head of RTV R&D at Kioti -- that person is doing the things that the company anticipates will add value, and dealing with your call is not one of those things. Kioti corporate probably does in fact have a bunch of technical people dedicated to dealing with customer issues, and these issues are relayed from customers through Kioti dealerships. Otherwise, random people -- including competitors -- are calling up Kioti R&D asking "who did you guys buy subassembly XYZ from?".

If you want more technical people on staff, attending to these types of queries, their total employment cost is going to be incurred in the end product. It costs -- including direct salary, benefits, training, and plant overhead -- about US$200K/year to have trained/experienced technical staff in the USA answering questions on the phone. The more people that you add, the higher the aggregate loaded cost of the employees and therefore the higher the burden on a per unit basis. So to maintain adequate operating margin the overall cost of the end product goes up. And that increased product cost can lead to reduced sales in a highly competitive market, can't it?

Let's analyze this concept financially in more depth. Your lost sale, at current tractor industry pricing margins, equates to about 6-8% of the purchase price. So, which is larger... 6-8% of your purchase price, or US$200K? I highly suspect the latter. If the "cost" of your lost sale is less than US$200K, then Kioti "won" economically -- that is, they didn't spend US$200K to make a tiny fraction of that back on a sale to you. If you were running a business, would you do that? For how long could you do that? Now of course you could argue that if they lost "N" sales, not just your one sale, then it could make a difference. True. But 1) it's hard to know the effects ahead of time, and 2) this support burden really should be on the dealers and the conduit into Kioti corporate.

If you had in fact gotten a technical person on the phone, I suspect that you would still have been frustrated by the fact that he/she would not have provided you with the name of the CVT manufacturer. Sometimes supplier arrangements are complicated, and covered by a variety of non-disclosure agreements.

So, in this instance, better sources of information might have included the dealer and probably google. Surely there is someone who has spent some quality time with the CVT unbolted and has a forum post or writeup on the repair thereof, and where replacement parts were sourced from. Did you try that approach?

n.b.
#1)
By the way I have no skin in this game. As disclosure I own a tractor built by a company starting with a K. It's not a Kioti. But the economics and information presented above is the case at ANY company -- whether you are building tractors or PC's or iPhones.

#2)
I'm an engineer at a large company. I don't expect the "switchboard person" (LoL) to direct calls to me so I can answer random questions from folks. If someone I do not personally know ends up on the phone asking me to identify a supplier, I would politely inform them that I can not provide such information. If they press on, I would politely inform them that the end of the kite string is theirs to hold.

#3)
I called Corning Inc once, because I had an issue with the glass panels in my wood stove cracking over and over again. The folks at Vermont Castings were nice but they could not solve the problem, other than to sell me new glass. That resulted in more cracked glass. So I figured I would call a big name "tier 1" float glass manufacturer and have them determine what the best glass for my application would be. I called Corning and I got bounced around -- in the process I talked with about 7 people in the Corning glass products group, and the last guy I talked to really took interest in my problem -- so much so that he sent me 6 pieces of glass (which he personally prepared and cut) to try out in my application. Those 6 pieces are in still in my stove, more than 10 years later. Did Corning "win" using this unconventional approach?

Wrooster

Excellent well thought out post.

James K0UA

Regardless of any good thinking, the whole story must include the extension to the customer base. ... By wroosters own #3 above you can see this. Corning did win if he relayed to Vermont Castings that the guy at Corning had solved a problem with their stove. Vermont Castings wins too. As mentioned in the thread, word gets around and should.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

Kubota sued Kioti over their color a few years back. I never did hear what the outcome was.

Misfire

.... Bobcat

 

[vfr700f2]

. Try calling Mother Kubota.

Regarding Kioti, I don't have a dog in this hunt.

However, I did have a question regarding operation of my Kubota RTV900s that I wanted answered by Mother Kubota, not my dealer (though the dealer is great). I called Kubota USA, pushed a couple of buttons, reached a technical rep's voicemail and had an answer the next day.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

Regarding Kioti, I don't have a dog in this hunt.

However, I did have a question regarding operation of my Kubota RTV900s that I wanted answered by Mother Kubota, not my dealer (though the dealer is great). I called Kubota USA, pushed a couple of buttons, reached a technical rep's voicemail and had an answer the next day.

I to had a question for Kubota and wanted to see if anyone but the dealer was listening/answering. I emailed them a question and rec'd an answer to my email.
Dated Feb 12, 2010 The response to my question.
John, the person or persons from TBN do not know what they are talking
about. There has not been a Service Bulletin or even a notice sent to the
dealers that this is a mistake in the Operators manual. Kubota Tractor
recommends for you to follow your Operators manuals for servicing of each
unit you have. The BX2660 and the BX25 do not have to have the transmission
fluid change until it reaches the 400 hour mark. For the F2680, it is the
200 hour mark. The transmission oil filters need to be replaced and the
suction strainers cleaned at or before the 50 hour mark for all three
units. Your selling dealer can also assist you if you have any questions in
regard to servicing your tractors. Thank you for purchasing and contacting
Kubota Tractor Corp..

 

[Profilemike]

Good to hear that you went with Kubota. Kubota is a top notch company... and their success proves it! :thumbsup:

Kioti appears to copy Kubota on everything regarding tractors... even the paint scheme. :loser:

I think you'll enjoy the Kubota 500 for your uses. Let us know how you like it. My friend just bought one on Friday as well! Runs like a sewing machine. Very refined! Post some pics if you get a chance!

It is ironic how Daedong, which is a KIOTI tractor, has been building tractors longer than Kubota....who is copying who?

 

[powerpace]

It is ironic how Daedong, which is a KIOTI tractor, has been building tractors longer than Kubota....who is copying who?

Kubota Ride on tractor first built in 1960. Daedong 1968. Kubota built walk behind rice cultivators for years before 1960. I bought the 21 hp Kubota in 1972 for Landscaping purposes. Prior to that I had operated many different makes and the Kubota for it's size was way advanced.

 

[MBTRAC]

Interesting & amusing to observe how this thread has morphed in all sorts of directions from what prompted the Misfire's initial post-

"Misfire : I decided to call Kioti USA and ask them directly who now makes the CVT. I had been staring at their brochure, and Kioti's toll free number was right there, and I thought, who better to ask than Kioti themselves? Just about anyone else, it seems." & Misfire's frustration with being unable to get an answer to who made the CVT........

Rationalising it, let's go back to the original post, does it really matter who made the CVT ?
Afterall like it or not we all live an ever increasing shrinking world where componets are sourced globally & products are branded &/or rebranded &/or multibranded for individually markets.....where or who makes components is largely irrelevant, the design & quality standards/controls to which they are made is governed by the brand...consider Tuff Torq Hydro transmissions as used generally in lawn tractors, they fail regularly in the JD L series but last well in most other applications, the failures are not a a reflection on Tuff Torq but rather on JD to sufficently spec & integrate into their L series lawn tractors

My BMW X5 is built in the US & uses a German ZF transmission, Bosch electronics ...etc is it more or less BMW than other BMW models built in built in Germany,or South Africa...or....?
I used to have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, an American iconic brand at the time owned by Daimler Benz & my Jeep was actually built in Austria.......so in theory it was more German than the Amercian BMW I now own.......maybe, but it was also a heap of junk, with the build quality & customer resolution process appalling
The Mazda BT50's we are now starting to run as farm utes (i.e. Pick Ups) are built in Thailand, as are the Toyota Hilux's we also run....
Range Rover, Land Rover & Jaguar are owned by Tata an Indian company & use German ZF transmissions, & Volvo cars are owned by the Chinese.......And Chrysler/Jeep is now owned by Fiat.......
And with the exception of maybe the Chinese, not one automotive, truck or capital equipment brand sources exclusively in their country of assembly all components....

So back to where the CVT was built, who cares ? Daedong/Kioti have a strong reputation for quality as indeed do most Korean global products ( Hyundai, Kia, LG, Bobcat...etc), sure Misfire may have had what he considers a so called "bad customer experience" at the US distributor with someone named Connie (doesn't sound like a Korean name to me:sarcastic: )........try asking similar or technical question to Ford, GM, Mazda, Toyota & see what response (if any ) is forthcoming...... or try asking a technical question to Coke like what's in their formula .....
Not surprisingly many brands guard the origins of components/contents of their products closely & reguarly dismiss enquiries........raely disseminating the info....unless it the Chinese who regularly claim Cummins, Perkins..etc. DNA in their product as a marketing tool...

 

[powerpace]

Interesting & amusing to observe how this thread has morphed in all sorts of directions from what prompted the Misfire's initial post-

"Misfire : I decided to call Kioti USA and ask them directly who now makes the CVT. I had been staring at their brochure, and Kioti's toll free number was right there, and I thought, who better to ask than Kioti themselves? Just about anyone else, it seems." & Misfire's frustration with being unable to get an answer to who made the CVT........

Rationalising it, let's go back to the original post, does it really matter who made the CVT ?
Afterall like it or not we all live an ever increasing shrinking world where componets are sourced globally & products are branded &/or rebranded &/or multibranded for individually markets.....where or who makes components is largely irrelevant, the design & quality standards/controls to which they are made is governed by the brand...consider Tuff Torq Hydro transmissions as used generally in lawn tractors, they fail regularly in the JD L series but last well in most other applications, the failures are not a a reflection on Tuff Torq but rather on JD to sufficently spec & integrate into their L series lawn tractors

My BMW X5 is built in the US & uses a German ZF transmission, Bosch electronics ...etc is it more or less BMW than other BMW models built in built in Germany,or South Africa...or....?
I used to have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, an American iconic brand at the time owned by Daimler Benz & my Jeep was actually built in Austria.......so in theory it was more German than the Amercian BMW I now own.......maybe, but it was also a heap of junk, with the build quality & customer resolution process appalling
The Mazda BT50's we are now starting to run as farm utes (i.e. Pick Ups) are built in Thailand, as are the Toyota Hilux's we also run....
Range Rover, Land Rover & Jaguar are owned by Tata an Indian company & use German ZF transmissions, & Volvo cars are owned by the Chinese.......And Chrysler/Jeep is now owned by Fiat.......
And with the exception of maybe the Chinese, not one automotive, truck or capital equipment brand sources exclusively in their country of assembly all components....

So back to where the CVT was built, who cares ? Daedong/Kioti have a strong reputation for quality as indeed do most Korean global products ( Hyundai, Kia, LG, Bobcat...etc), sure Misfire may have had what he considers a so called "bad customer experience" at the US distributor with someone named Connie (doesn't sound like a Korean name to me:sarcastic: )........try asking similar or technical question to Ford, GM, Mazda, Toyota & see what response (if any ) is forthcoming...... or try asking a technical question to Coke like what's in their formula .....
Not surprisingly many brands guard the origins of components/contents of their products closely & reguarly dismiss enquiries........raely disseminating the info....unless it the Chinese who regularly claim Cummins, Perkins..etc. DNA in their product as a marketing tool...

Well said.