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  1. #21
    Platinum Member
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    898
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    Buffalo, New York
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    318 John Deere, 4200 John Deere, 1947 John Deere "M"

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Sorry I missed that BoBo! With my luck I would have downloaded the "Stick-Figure" version, cause the 'curved line' option was not yet available!

  2. #22
    Platinum Member bobodu's Avatar
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    Mar 2004
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    954
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    Whitley County,In.EIEIO
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    Farmnought.Gravely Model L,Gravely Model LI,1941 Clinton two wheeler

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Just as well you didn't. Fortunately,I've only gone blind in the right eye.
    1945 Allis-Chalmers,1967 Wheelhorse.The wife has a bubble hooded Simplicity and a Dixon.
    Anything green here- has roots or gets spent!!!


  3. #23
    Veteran Member JohnDeere4300's Avatar
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    Feb 2005
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    1,564
    Location
    Kentucky
    Tractor
    John Deere 4300

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobodu View Post
    I'm working on a plan to run my trucks on cow farts. Instead of the EPA levying a tax on Elsie...I'm gonna get money selling carbon credits to my own Government!!

    Do you ever watch dirty jobs on the discovery channel?

    There was a guy they called the poo-pot maker, he made peat pots out of cow poo and heated his house with it also. Mike ask him when you heat you house your basically burning cow farts.

    I liked it when mike rowe told the man that he was a genius, because
    of the different things he was using the poo for.

    And the man said he was no genius, because a genius would never
    be working in cow sh** all day.
    John 3:16

    01 JohnDeere4300 "Sync-Reverser", Vertical Exhaust, 2 JD Lawn Tractors, JD Walk Behind.

    430-FEL/ 47-Backhoe/ 5' Bush-Hog/ Single Bottom Plow/ 6' Disc/ Aerator Spreader/ HF Quick-Hitch!

    (Homemade Stuff) BH Thumb/ Log-Hitch/ 10' Boom-Pole/ 42'' Pallet Forks ''FEL Quick Attach & 3PH Quick-Hitch-Attach''/ Ballast Box 1381 lbs./ Aluminum Canopy/ Brush-Guard Mod/ 5x10 Firewood Trailer/ Lawn Striper.

  4. #24
    Platinum Member bobodu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    954
    Location
    Whitley County,In.EIEIO
    Tractor
    Farmnought.Gravely Model L,Gravely Model LI,1941 Clinton two wheeler

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    I see you got the image in your signature!!

    1945 Allis-Chalmers,1967 Wheelhorse.The wife has a bubble hooded Simplicity and a Dixon.
    Anything green here- has roots or gets spent!!!


  5. #25
    Platinum Member CBW1999's Avatar
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    May 2008
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    856
    Location
    Northern Vermont on the 45th parallel
    Tractor
    Kubota 7510, Toro Groundsmaster 217D

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    All joking aside....I read the same web site- the concept is based on electrolosis. When a current is passed throug a liquid, it breaks it down into its molecules.

    So the science is correct, however- as mentioned previously it is an issue of efficiency. The system decribed is made out of a "mason Jar". The rate of conversion can be increased based on current applied, however the volume of hydrogen and oxygen supplied are nominal. So a quart size jar might be good for a SMALL 2 cycle lawn mower.

    You might make a more efficient system by using Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as opposed to water (H20). Place a 55 gallon poly drum in the trunk as you liquid container.....and there you go efficiency-

    The thought that mixing in oxygen and/or hydrogen to improve fuel economy might also be achieved by metering in pure oxygen at the intake manifold, but again, not efficient or practical.

    I don't do well with math...but I am curious what the volume conversion is from a measued volume of liquid H20 into the gasseous volume when electrolosys is done. Any ideas?

  6. #26
    Gold Member
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    Jul 2008
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    349
    Location
    South Texas
    Tractor
    2005 JD 5103

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    The Houston news had a field report of a man doing this. He designed his system and increased his fuel economy quite a bit from what I remember. I remember seeing all of the components. Wish I could find an article on it. It didn't run entirely on water though.
    JD 5103, 512 FEL w/bucket, home-made front bale spear, 60" Armstrong Ag box blade, Rhino SE6 rotary mower, 5' JD 3-point disc, home-made 26'-200 gallon sprayer

  7. #27
    Platinum Member bobodu's Avatar
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    Mar 2004
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    954
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    Whitley County,In.EIEIO
    Tractor
    Farmnought.Gravely Model L,Gravely Model LI,1941 Clinton two wheeler

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Let's not forget the expensive and dangerous equipment needed to compress a highly explosive gas for transportation. Maybe even a special license....
    1945 Allis-Chalmers,1967 Wheelhorse.The wife has a bubble hooded Simplicity and a Dixon.
    Anything green here- has roots or gets spent!!!


  8. #28
    Silver Member
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    Dec 2008
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    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Well, I'll chime in again with a useful post this time...

    In regards to the H2O2 thing... That wouldn't do anything for efficiency. What electrolyzing pure water gives you is a stoichiometric (fancy word for balanced) mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen. In an idea reaction 2 Hydrogen atoms react with one oxygen atom to produce one one water molecule. So you could theoretically use the gas produced by the water4gas device to fuel your engine with no additional air intake and you'd get nothing but water vapor out the tail pipe.

    Most commercial electrolyzers have the two electrodes separated to keep the hydrogen and oxygen separate. The Water4Gas, OxyHydrogen, Brown's Gas, etc. devices let the oxygen and hydrogen mix. Because of that, you can't store the gas produced because of it's instability. If you hook one of these cells to your car you'd have to have a check valve in line to keep a possible backfire from reaching the electrolytic cell and causing a small explosion.

    Brown's Gas has been used for years to make high-power torches used for working with metals such as platinum and palladium that will rapidly oxidize if heated with a regular flame. Brown's gas torches are pretty much identical to the device shown on the page. You've got a reservoir that holds water and a power source that runs DC current through it to separate the water into it's components and sends it immediately down the tube to the torch tip. The key to making it work well is to have a power supply that can generate enough current to keep the water electrolyzing fast enough to keep pressure to the torch tip but still slow enough to keep a significant amount of unstable gas mixture from building up in the cell.

    So how does that all mesh with using it on a vehicle...

    The hypothesis is that a car's alternator is constantly producing power that is not being used by anything. By pumping that power to an electrolytic cell it can be used to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen which is then fed into your intake and burned by the engine.

    The place where the hypothesis falls apart is the "unused power" being produced by the alternator. Anyone familiar with power generation knows that when you put a load across a generator the motor driving the generator has to work harder to spin the generator at the same speed. This is just as true of a car's alternator. Every test I've seen shows the electrolytic cell pulling in excess of 20 amps of power. That power has to come from somewhere and it's going to come from somewhere. Now consider that in an ideal reaction the amount of energy needed to separate a water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen will be equal to the amount of energy released when the molecules recombine (combustion). With engine efficiency being only around 80% then there is no way an engine could provide enough power to supply 100% of it's own fuel.

    But what about all the people testing these systems and showing all these great fuel efficiency gains???

    There's a bit of voodoo going on behind the scenes. All of the W4G sites tell you that you need to fool your car's computer into cutting the fuel flow back so it can burn the H2+O gas. So these people go out and add these modules that tweak the voltage returned by the O2 sensor to make the computer think the engine is running rich. The result is that the engine leans out. That's where your fuel economy increases. Normally this would cause your engine to start heating up rapidly. Most engines have enough cooling capacity that they can effectively handle enough extra heat to give you some mpg gains through leaning the system.

    There are a couple of other things that could be happening as well.... The burning H2+O gas produces water vapor that might conceivably add some cooling to the engine as well, but that may be more like voodoo than tricking the O2 sensor.

    The other thing that is claimed is that there is a "perfect" electrolytic cell design that puts roughly 1.2 volts between each element in the cell and that magic voltage causes some sort of resonant reaction that drastically lowers the amount of energy required to split water molecules. Sounds like even more voodoo, but I haven't run the numbers myself so I'm just basing my assumption on common sense and accepted physics.

    Now, if you could somehow use solar cells to charge up a bunch of batteries while your car is idle and use that power to run the electrolytic cell you might be able to run your car 100% on H2+O gas. Unfortunately with internal combustion engine efficiency being what it is you would be better served by using all that stored power to run an electric motor directly.

    If you really want to look for a practical project to support that actually has pretty darn good chance of solving the world's energy problems once and for all, google polywell fusion or stop over to Talk-Polywell.org and read for a while.

  9. #29
    Gold Member
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    Mar 2006
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    Location
    Gallatin TN
    Tractor
    Ford 1100

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    Here's the bottom line: it won't work.

    Water has oxygen bonded to hydrogen. If you burn hydrogen (make the hydrogen react with oxygen), it forms the bonds and releases energy. However, if you want to break water back into hydrogen and oxygen, it takes energy. If electrolysis and burning were 100% efficient, the electrolysis process would take exactly the same amount of energy that's released by burning the hydrogen. EXACTLY the same--energy can't be created from nowhere!! The bonds take energy to break, and they release the same energy when formed.

    So "best case", this is impossible. In the real world, it's even more impossible. Electrolysis is in the order of 20% efficient, give or take a fair bit, but it's still pretty inefficent. Burning hydrogen isn't 100% efficient. Engines aren't 100% efficent. Alernators (to create the electricity for electrolysis) aren't 100% efficent. So by the time all is said and done, the whole process is a huge energy drain.

    Some folks claim that a tiny percentage of hydrogen in their fuel somehow increases their fuel efficiency (enough to somehow cover the electrolysis energy inefficiencies). However, the only documented studies achieving an increase in efficiency required an ultra-lean mixture, idling, with a 5% concentration of hydrogen The amount of energy to create that amount of hydrogen is quite high, over 50 hp for a full-size energy IIRC. The gain in fuel efficiency wasnt nearly that great--so it's still a negative net energy result. In other words, it still takes more energy to create the hydrogen than you save. Oh, this also required a completely different fuel system, and a completely different engine control program...so trying to pump hydrogen into an ordinary engine won't do a durn thing.

  10. #30
    Platinum Member bobodu's Avatar
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    954
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    Whitley County,In.EIEIO
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    Farmnought.Gravely Model L,Gravely Model LI,1941 Clinton two wheeler

    Default Re: water 4 gas anyone look in to this.

    This is very concise and well explained,but what of "The Three Second Theorem" ( or Five Seconds in parts of Alabama) ???


    "A morsel of food dropped onto the floor is deemed edible if it is in contact with the floor for a period of less than three seconds (or five seconds in parts of Alabama)."
    1945 Allis-Chalmers,1967 Wheelhorse.The wife has a bubble hooded Simplicity and a Dixon.
    Anything green here- has roots or gets spent!!!


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