Trailer axle/tire question

   / Trailer axle/tire question #1  

zmansmac

Gold Member
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
256
Location
Arcadia Township, Michigan
Tractor
Kubota B7500
I decided to make my first trailer because I got a good deal on some tube steel. I also just got a good deal on a couple of used 3500 lb axles. I plan on making a flat, non-tilting trailer with no beavertail. The axles I bought are the drop type and the springs can go on either top or bottom. What I'm trying to figure out is what is the smallest diameter tire I can use. Are there some charts for this or a way to measure and calculate? :confused:
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #2  
I have a trailer like what you are describing. I currently have 235/75R-15 tires. That is the largest size that I am aware of (for the 3500lb axles). The smallest is 205/75R-15. This tire is smaller and thinner than what I am running. I am a little curious why you want to go small? You will want and need ground clearance as you drive. I would strongly suggest that you add brakes if the axles are not equipped. Otherwise, sounds like you have a plan.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #3  
Oh, I forgot the most important part. The tire and axle mfg's have charts. Try Tirerack.com for tires and dexteraxle.com for axles or google it...
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question
  • Thread Starter
#4  
Mike,

Thanks for the info, I'll check them out. I wanted to keep the tires on the smaller side for less ground clearance and a lower CG with a load. And smaller tires are generally less expensive it seems. I realize that larger tires can mean heavier loads but that will not be an issue with me. Another advantage is that my ramps can be shorter. I'm thinking about 13 of 14 inch tires but I wanted to try and figure out how much clearance I'll have before I put everything together and buy tires. I have a pontoon trailer with 10 inch tires and clearance has not been a problem.;) BTW, one axle is an idler and one has electric brakes which leads me to another question. Does it matter if it's the front or rear axle that has the brakes? I'm guessing the rear position would be better.

Zman
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #5  
two problems you will run into and some of my experiences with tandem trailers and tires:

first, smaller tires, in general, can carry less max weight. with two 3500 lb axles, you are building a 7,000 lb trailer. that means you need each tire to carry a minimum of 1750 lbs. you should also have a decent safety margin (you will need it!). on my 15" diameter tires on my 20', 7000 lb trailer, each tire in the load C range can only carry a hair over 1800 lbs. these tires cost about 85 dollars to replace mounted and balanced. i know this because i replace several a year due to overloading and due to the crappy nature of the el cheapo tires that came with the trailer when new. to go up to a load d or e, now you are talking 110 to 150 each mounted and balanced. that is 600 for four new tires! plus, a spare. also keep in mind on a tandem trailer, it is recommended to replace both tires on a side if you have a blowout when loaded because the good tire on that side bears all the load when the second tire blows out and it damages the seemingly good tire internally when you overload it by twice its recommended capacity. best to avoid blowouts by sizing the tires with a good safety margin.

second, you do not want an odd size trailer tire you have to order. you want a commonly available tire and a spare because you will get flats. on a tandem trailer it is very easy to go from a low tire to a ruined tire because you won't notice it right away when going down the hiway. you want to be able to pick up a new tire at any decent size town you happen to be close to. you don't want to have to park you nice trailer in the median in these hard economic times. it's just too tempting a prize for someone in a desperate situation. start with a common size tire rated for trailers and carry a spare.

hope that helps! i run 175/75-15ST in load range C. i have found locally that mastertrac tires last the longest in this load range.

as far as clearance and COG, low is good but it depends on how long the trailer is. longer requires higher clearance so the tail will clear when going over uneven ground. with larger tires, you can probably just go with higher fenders to get whatever clearance you need.

i'll also mention that probably the most critical design decision you face is the location of the axles on the frame. farther back tows more smoothly and less chance of fishtailing, but requires the tow vehicle to carry more tongue weight. make sure you understand the tongue weight relationship and the real world ability of your tow vehicle to be comfortable when towing with whatever weight you decide to put on the ball. sometimes this is the same as the manufacturer's specs and sometimes not.

one last thing about fabbing a tandem. professional builders have a good feel for how strong their steel is and how much reinforcement to add. a hobby builder or first time builder will be tempted to over do this which adds a lot of weight to the trailer. take a look at some designs you like before you start. my trailer weighs about 2200 lbs empty. that eats quite a bit of the 7k load capacity. don't ruin your hauling capacity by overbuilding the trailer and adding too much weight.

so, there it is! pick a common tire size in your area. pick tires large enough to carry the weight plus safety margin in the load range you want to pay for. locate axles accordingly. and yes, i would put brakes on one axle.

good luck and happy building!

amp
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #6  
Does it matter if it's the front or rear axle that has the brakes? I'm guessing the rear position would be better.

Zman

Yes they go on the back axle. I've seen many built wrong though;)
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #7  
Yes they go on the back axle. I've seen many built wrong though;)

I respectfully disagree here. If you are only going with one axel, brake dual axel trailer, think of where is most of the weight. If you remember right, trailers are normally built in 80/20 weight placement with 80 toward front. Therefore the angle of the trailer will be forward whether its loaded or not and the trailer will be more efficient braking in the front. If you have seen many built wrong, think of why did they build it that way ?;)
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #8  
Mike,
Does it matter if it's the front or rear axle that has the brakes? I'm guessing the rear position would be better.

Zman

Great discussion. I just installed brakes on the front axle of my tandem. My thinking was not only more static weight up forward but even more so when you apply the brakes. Front brakes on your truck do something like 75% of the work. That being said they sure seem to lock up easy. I have not had a heavy load on it yet with the brakes, maybe 800-1000 lbs. I can manually apply just the trailer brakes and they will lock up before you can feel a lot of slowing down. Wondering if they would act the same on the back.

DRL
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #9  
Brakes should go on the front axle, unless I have been doing it wrong. Weight shift when braking tends to pick up the rear axle, lowering the amount of traction/friction and decreasing braking efficency.
If someone can give me better reasons, I am all ears!
David from jax
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #10  
two problems you will run into and some of my experiences with tandem trailers and tires:

first, smaller tires, in general, can carry less max weight. with two 3500 lb axles, you are building a 7,000 lb trailer. that means you need each tire to carry a minimum of 1750 lbs. you should also have a decent safety margin (you will need it!). on my 15" diameter tires on my 20', 7000 lb trailer, each tire in the load C range can only carry a hair over 1800 lbs. these tires cost about 85 dollars to replace mounted and balanced. i know this because i replace several a year due to overloading and due to the crappy nature of the el cheapo tires that came with the trailer when new. to go up to a load d or e, now you are talking 110 to 150 each mounted and balanced. that is 600 for four new tires! plus, a spare. also keep in mind on a tandem trailer, it is recommended to replace both tires on a side if you have a blowout when loaded because the good tire on that side bears all the load when the second tire blows out and it damages the seemingly good tire internally when you overload it by twice its recommended capacity. best to avoid blowouts by sizing the tires with a good safety margin.

second, you do not want an odd size trailer tire you have to order. you want a commonly available tire and a spare because you will get flats. on a tandem trailer it is very easy to go from a low tire to a ruined tire because you won't notice it right away when going down the hiway. you want to be able to pick up a new tire at any decent size town you happen to be close to. you don't want to have to park you nice trailer in the median in these hard economic times. it's just too tempting a prize for someone in a desperate situation. start with a common size tire rated for trailers and carry a spare.

hope that helps! i run 175/75-15ST in load range C. i have found locally that mastertrac tires last the longest in this load range.

as far as clearance and COG, low is good but it depends on how long the trailer is. longer requires higher clearance so the tail will clear when going over uneven ground. with larger tires, you can probably just go with higher fenders to get whatever clearance you need.

i'll also mention that probably the most critical design decision you face is the location of the axles on the frame. farther back tows more smoothly and less chance of fishtailing, but requires the tow vehicle to carry more tongue weight. make sure you understand the tongue weight relationship and the real world ability of your tow vehicle to be comfortable when towing with whatever weight you decide to put on the ball. sometimes this is the same as the manufacturer's specs and sometimes not.

one last thing about fabbing a tandem. professional builders have a good feel for how strong their steel is and how much reinforcement to add. a hobby builder or first time builder will be tempted to over do this which adds a lot of weight to the trailer. take a look at some designs you like before you start. my trailer weighs about 2200 lbs empty. that eats quite a bit of the 7k load capacity. don't ruin your hauling capacity by overbuilding the trailer and adding too much weight.

so, there it is! pick a common tire size in your area. pick tires large enough to carry the weight plus safety margin in the load range you want to pay for. locate axles accordingly. and yes, i would put brakes on one axle.amp

I would not put brakes on 1 axle.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #11  
You guys are all wet with your car theory about brakes being applicable to trailers.
Weight transfers to the REAR axle on equalized tandems under braking. If you've ever had brakes on both axles and get a lockup you'll see it is always the front axle that locks up first, thereby showing it has less traction.
Gimme a few minutes and I'll find a reference.
Maybe that trailer engineer from Holland will show up- this has been discussed and settled before!

From-http://www.championtrailers.com/techsup.html#techretro

When only one brake axle is being installed on a tandem axle trailer, the brakes should be on the rear axle for maximum system performance. Rotational torque applied to axles during braking shifts the equalizer and applies more weight to rear axle. If brakes are installed on the front axle, the wheel may skid during braking. Brakes on rear axle are more effective as the equalizers shifts and the rear tires dig in to the pavement.
 
Last edited:
   / Trailer axle/tire question #12  
As for tire size, my trailer has the same size as my truck and bolt pattern. I carry a spare for each which makes for 2 spares!!

I know the rear axle on semi tandems do the most work for braking but not sure for trailer axles
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #13  
Well Skyco that makes sense as to why trailer manufactures put brakes on the rear axle when only one set of brakes are used.

That car theory obviously does hold true with trucks also, since the truck has six brakes and the trailer has four, Who's doin most of the stopping....truck or trailer?? Does that 17k truck really need six brakes to stop itself? Or is it more of a braking platform for doing most of the stopping for a 60K trailer and the trailer brakes help slow down and keep the trailer from jackknifing.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #14  
You guys are all wet with your car theory about brakes being applicable to trailers.
Weight transfers to the REAR axle on equalized tandems under braking. If you've ever had brakes on both axles and get a lockup you'll see it is always the front axle that locks up first, thereby showing it has less traction.
Gimme a few minutes and I'll find a reference.
Maybe that trailer engineer from Holland will show up- this has been discussed and settled before!

From-TECHNICAL INFORMATION AND TECH ARTICLES

When only one brake axle is being installed on a tandem axle trailer, the brakes should be on the rear axle for maximum system performance. Rotational torque applied to axles during braking shifts the equalizer and applies more weight to rear axle. If brakes are installed on the front axle, the wheel may skid during braking. Brakes on rear axle are more effective as the equalizers shifts and the rear tires dig in to the pavement.

Thanks for the tidbit skyco. It's always good to have people like you to look out for us idiots .:p:D At least I have learned something today.;)
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #15  
- it seems intuitive the front axle would be best..but...;)

I'm actually struggling a little with this now as I have a dump trailer that wants to lock up the front axle brakes when empty, even with the controller turned down. I'm going to add a resistor to the front brakes to make them work a little less firmly than the back brakes. Loaded it isn't an issue. Somewhere I have a 40+ year old brake resistor from the old days when we actually hooked controllers into the hydraulic lines on the tow vehicles.

BTW I'm firmly in the camp a trailer should ALWAYS have brakes on BOTH axles. The only trailer I ever bought with one axle brakes I added the second axle brakes to immediately.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #16  
- it seems intuitive the front axle would be best..but...;)

I'm actually struggling a little with this now as I have a dump trailer that wants to lock up the front axle brakes when empty, even with the controller turned down. I'm going to add a resistor to the front brakes to make them work a little less firmly than the back brakes. Loaded it isn't an issue. Somewhere I have a 40+ year old brake resistor from the old days when we actually hooked controllers into the hydraulic lines on the tow vehicles.

BTW I'm firmly in the camp a trailer should ALWAYS have brakes on BOTH axles. The only trailer I ever bought with one axle brakes I added the second axle brakes to immediately.

That does bring up a good point. If you are setting the controller for the best braking effort, which axle are you setting? If your theory is correct, you would set the brakes just before lock up but then you are actually setting the controller for the front axle, which leaves the rear axle at diminish capacity. So, if you want the rear axle to have the best braking, or equal braking, you have to some how put less braking effort on the front to prevent lock up, and by adding a resister to the front axle, I believe you will be able to balance the braking effort like you said. The controller setting will vary with each load, and your balanced condition. In theory, to compensate for the above conditions, you need a variable resister on the front axle brakes to fine tune the braking action.

The original poster should measure several trailers to get the correct spacing, for the math has been worked out long age. As far as tires, If you want smaller, boat tires might work. They haul some heavy boats. They also make tire just for trailers that are designed for trailers. At least, get the load range right plus 10 %. Also, select tires and rims that are readily available.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #17  
I have 2 trailers, both tandem 7,000#, and one has brakes on the front axle and the other has it on the rear. Can not tell a bit of difference. My buddies down the road also has them on the front but my neighbors has them on the rear. Not any real clear winner. As for the tires and wheels go one of my trailer has 205-75-15 load range C and the other has 205-75-14 load range C. Both are rated for 1760# each. No real problems with either.

13" wheels will not work with 3,500# axles because the rims will not fit over the wheel.


Chris
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #18  
- it seems intuitive the front axle would be best..but...;)

I'm actually struggling a little with this now as I have a dump trailer that wants to lock up the front axle brakes when empty, even with the controller turned down. I'm going to add a resistor to the front brakes to make them work a little less firmly than the back brakes. Loaded it isn't an issue. Somewhere I have a 40+ year old brake resistor from the old days when we actually hooked controllers into the hydraulic lines on the tow vehicles.

BTW I'm firmly in the camp a trailer should ALWAYS have brakes on BOTH axles. The only trailer I ever bought with one axle brakes I added the second axle brakes to immediately.
That's my camp also.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #19  
That does bring up a good point. If you are setting the controller for the best braking effort, which axle are you setting? If your theory is correct, you would set the brakes just before lock up but then you are actually setting the controller for the front axle, which leaves the rear axle at diminish capacity.

On my particular trailer it is an issue only when lightly loaded or empty, when the trailer it at 14,000 gross I can't lock up any wheel:) The trailer still weighs 3500 lbs empty so I'd like some braking with it empty, more than it feels like right before the front locks up. If I add the resistor to the front brake wiring I'll need to add a switch to bypass it when full.
 
   / Trailer axle/tire question #20  
I am generally inclined to have a lot more weight on the front of a trailer. Put a truck in the ditch about 30 years ago due to a rear heavy trailer and I haven't forgotten it. I have pulled a lot of different trailers, and when empty, if one axle is "light", it is always the back axle. Why would I ever want to have a set of brakes on the axle that is generally having the lessor amount of weight on it? Granted, if the trailer sets exactly level, with equal amounts of weight on each axle, then maybe, but in my experience, the rear one is the one that usually locks up.
Having brakes on a trailer is a good thing, although not always required. If your towing nothing but a lawnmower or something light, then trailer brakes aren't usually required. Having spec'd out brakes for at least one axle might cover the times when you need to haul something just a little heavier. In this state, any loaded trailer over 2,000 pounds is required to have brakes, and most people's tow vehicles need them to assist braking. Someone with a small dual axle trailer hauling only light loads can easily get away with just having single axle brakes. Depends on the load, the trailer, the tow vehicle, the terrain, the road conditions and probably a bunch more things. Each circumstance requires the driver to consider what he (or she) is doing and allow for just that. If you aren't sure of what your doing, or hauling medium to heavy loads, then by all means dual axle brakes are a way to offset the odds of getting into trouble. To mandate that all trailers have dual axle brakes is trying to require things that aren't always necessary, just because in your case they are. If dual axle brakes were always needed, there would be no single axle trailers on the road.
David from jax
 

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