>> MORSE TAPER DRILL PRESS CHUCK ??

[BearKiller]

Brad Blazer,

How did you access HF owner's/parts manuals ??

I have tried different times on different subjects and never been able to find them.

Thanks.

[Brad_Blazer]

Originally Posted by BearKiller

Brad Blazer,

How did you access HF owner's/parts manuals ??

I have tried different times on different subjects and never been able to find them.

Thanks.

Go to the item listing:
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
and scroll down to the green button that says "download product manual"

On the next page you will have to click on the item number. For discontinued items, the manual may still be available. Just edit the item number in the manual's address bar. You may have to edit the range or pick a manual with a closer item number to start with.

[Mace Canute]

Get a decent quality keyless chuck and you will never regret it! I use one on my mill (1 1/2 hp BP clone) and I have drilled holes up to an inch and a quarter with no slippage unless I got aggressive on the feed.

You're very right allenr, larger sized drills certainly should have a hex shank, especially ones over 1/2. I have milled 3 flats on some shanks on larger drills for myself and for a friend, easy to do if you have a mill and semi universal dividing head! Sure makes a huge difference in the holding power a chuck has to develope to prevent slippage!

Originally Posted by BearKiller

They are Morse Taper 2, and they do fit the Morse socket on my press, but those are lathe chucks and lack a very important part that drill chucks have = the "drive key" that is on the small end of the taper that engages a slot inside the arbor, thus preventing the chuck from spinning inside the arbor.

Tangs, or "drive key" as you call it, on Morse tapers are not there for "holding power". The taper itself, combined with an axial load, is what generates the holding power. IF the tang on the drill bit can engage the bottom of the socket on a DP, it definitely adds to the holding power, but it isn't the main force by a long shot. (Try milling with a MT endmill and the radial load will walk the taper out under all but the lightest loads. MT endmills need to be restrained with a drawbar.) On another forum quite awhile ago they did the math which proved the tang did not have the physical strength to prevent the taper from spinning. It's soft, and has little area, just the shoulders of the tang, bearing on the spindle and would twist off under a heavy load. They are there to give a wedge shaped drift something to work on when you want to remove them from a female M.T. socket (when they cannot be tapped out from the end) without damaging the end of the taper...damage which could very well prevent it from seating properly into the socket the next time it was used. A wedge shaped drift is placed through the tang slot in the DP spindle and quill between the end of the tang and rear end of the slot, and struck with a hammer which forces the MT out. On lathes, you can reach in through the spindle to tap the MT out of the headstock end and on the tailstock end, cranking the barrel all the in back brings the MT into contact with the end of the screw and forces it out that way.

Originally Posted by BearKiller

The reason that drive key is absent on a lathe chuck is so the chuck will spin if a tool caught in the stock being turned.

That is the most wrong statement I have ever heard concerning a lathe. YOU DO NOT WANT A MT TO SPIN IN EITHER THE HEADSTOCK OR THE TAILSTOCK!!! Spinnning in a socket, (just once is enough!) can damage it by raising burrs, especially if it is not a hardened socket. A soft socket can be repaired by judicious use of the appropriate sized MT reamer...repairing a hardened sockets is another story,but it can be done. Cleanliness of both the male taper and the female socket is also of utmost importance before seating the drill into the socket. Wiping both with a lint free cloth to remove any coating of oil isn't over kill. A VERY TINY bit of foreign material in the female socket is enough to cause problems. Dings in the male taper can raise metal and you should check for that and use a slipstone to remove it. The fit between the male and female parts should be as perfect as you can get it. If it isn't, the taper does not seat properly and if it doesn't seated properly, it doesn't develop it's full holding power and the probability of slipping is very high, which means it will probably raise burs and the whole Catch22 situation continues.
A little error in wording, MT are not held in a chuck on a lathe, they usually either go directly into the spindle which would be a female MT socket or you use a MT adapter, usually to size down a size. E.g. from #3 MT to #2 MT. Usually a MT drill bit would be held in the tailstock, which is often one size down from the headstock size.
The fact that you can use a MT in a lathe which has no provision to drive the tang pretty well also negates the idea that the tang is a driving device. However, it is also prudent to use a lathe dog to give backup holding power to the bit if you are doing a heavy cut. It's easy to do on the tailstock side and with a faceplate on the spindle, also easy, and an ounce of prevention is definitely worth more than a pound of cure in this case.

[BearKiller]

Originally Posted by Mace Canute

Get a decent quality keyless chuck and you will never regret it! I use one on my mill (1 1/2 hp BP clone) and I have drilled holes up to an inch and a quarter with no slippage unless I got aggressive on the feed.

You're very right allenr, larger sized drills certainly should have a hex shank, especially ones over 1/2. I have milled 3 flats on some shanks on larger drills for myself and for a friend, easy to do if you have a mill and semi universal dividing head! Sure makes a huge difference in the holding power a chuck has to develope to prevent slippage!


Tangs, or "drive key" as you call it, on Morse tapers are not there for "holding power". The taper itself, combined with an axial load, is what generates the holding power. IF the tang on the drill bit can engage the bottom of the socket on a DP, it definitely adds to the holding power, but it isn't the main force by a long shot. (Try milling with a MT endmill and the radial load will walk the taper out under all but the lightest loads. MT endmills need to be restrained with a drawbar.) On another forum quite awhile ago they did the math which proved the tang did not have the physical strength to prevent the taper from spinning. It's soft, and has little area, just the shoulders of the tang, bearing on the spindle and would twist off under a heavy load. They are there to give a wedge shaped drift something to work on when you want to remove them from a female M.T. socket (when they cannot be tapped out from the end) without damaging the end of the taper...damage which could very well prevent it from seating properly into the socket the next time it was used. A wedge shaped drift is placed through the tang slot in the DP spindle and quill between the end of the tang and rear end of the slot, and struck with a hammer which forces the MT out. On lathes, you can reach in through the spindle to tap the MT out of the headstock end and on the tailstock end, cranking the barrel all the in back brings the MT into contact with the end of the screw and forces it out that way.

That is the most wrong statement I have ever heard concerning a lathe. YOU DO NOT WANT A MT TO SPIN IN EITHER THE HEADSTOCK OR THE TAILSTOCK!!! Spinnning in a socket, (just once is enough!) can damage it by raising burrs, especially if it is not a hardened socket. A soft socket can be repaired by judicious use of the appropriate sized MT reamer...repairing a hardened sockets is another story,but it can be done. Cleanliness of both the male taper and the female socket is also of utmost importance before seating the drill into the socket. Wiping both with a lint free cloth to remove any coating of oil isn't over kill. A VERY TINY bit of foreign material in the female socket is enough to cause problems. Dings in the male taper can raise metal and you should check for that and use a slipstone to remove it. The fit between the male and female parts should be as perfect as you can get it. If it isn't, the taper does not seat properly and if it doesn't seated properly, it doesn't develop it's full holding power and the probability of slipping is very high, which means it will probably raise burs and the whole Catch22 situation continues.
A little error in wording, MT are not held in a chuck on a lathe, they usually either go directly into the spindle which would be a female MT socket or you use a MT adapter, usually to size down a size. E.g. from #3 MT to #2 MT. Usually a MT drill bit would be held in the tailstock, which is often one size down from the headstock size.
The fact that you can use a MT in a lathe which has no provision to drive the tang pretty well also negates the idea that the tang is a driving device. However, it is also prudent to use a lathe dog to give backup holding power to the bit if you are doing a heavy cut. It's easy to do on the tailstock side and with a faceplate on the spindle, also easy, and an ounce of prevention is definitely worth more than a pound of cure in this case.

Thanks for straightening me out on the tang business.

It appears that my poor old General Shop teacher has led myself and 13 other poor souls along a mis-guided path and caused us to believe wrongly all these many years.

Right or wrong, at least I remembered his instruction all these many years.


So, then I can use the two HF Morse Taper 1/2" chucks in my press and drill satisfactorily, but then lacking the tang, not be able to pop them out with the little wedge thingie and be stuck with one in there forever, right ??

[allenr]

Originally Posted by Mace Canute

I have milled 3 flats on some shanks on larger drills for myself and for a friend, easy to do if you have a mill and semi universal dividing head! Sure makes a huge difference in the holding power a chuck has to develope to prevent slippage!

Good idea.

I have a cheap Taiwanese mill that is mainly good for breaking end mills (yes I use a drawbolt).

But I also have grinders and an emery wheel, I might try some precision grinding!

[Mace Canute]

Yeah BearKiller, I was also at one time of the opinion the tang was there for "holding power" but I was educated and convinced otherwise by very well presented arguments to the contrary. Apparently it is a bit of an "old wives tale" (or should that be "old machinists tale"?)!
As far as getting the tangless arbors out of your DP, could you carefully weld on the very end to make an extension long enough for the wedge shaped drift to contact? As long as it didn't interfer with the solid fitting of the taper into the socket, it should work. Welding on the end shouldn't warp it.
Sometimes it doesn't take all that much to get a MT to release, just a few well placed whacks on the side of the chuck will pop it lose, but sometimes it's like they are one piece with the spindle! Just don't use a temperature difference between the two when you install them or they REALLY get tight, its almost like a press fit!

[GE222]

You get what you pay for! Don't expect a a lot from a poor quality chuck. I have used a number of import low dollar drill presses over the years. Almost all of my frustration has been with the chuck.

A top of the line Jacobs 16N ball bearing super chuck which can open to 0.630 will last forever and will not slip. A new one is pretty pricey. But a used on in great shape can be had for under $90 or so on eBay.

I have domestic two drill presses the larger of the two has an 18N chuck that mounts to a MT3 socket on the quill. I have not had an issue with up to a 1-1/2" high quality bit with a straight 1/2" shank. I also use MT shank drill bits as well.

There are also some very high quality hand operated chucks available as well, although I have not had an opportunity to use one myself.

Also starting with the correct size pilot hole, proper feed rates, as well as having a properly sharpened drill bit make all the difference.

[2manyrocks]

I think I bought mine from Grizzly. Sometimes you run up on them at auctions.

[BearKiller]

Originally Posted by 2manyrocks

I think I bought mine from Grizzly. Sometimes you run up on them at auctions.

Why I don't know, but I often forget the existence of GRIZZLY when looking for tools.

I even have a big thick GRIZZLY catalog around here somewhere.

I will see what they have.

Thanks.

[Brad_Blazer]

Here is another resource. They have quite a selection and their prices seem competitive. I recently found them and have yet to buy anything.
https://www.travers.com/brochure/