Woodsplitter Build (Timberwolf clone)

[Scooby074]

my horizontals are back, just not as far as Id like (design screwup on my part).

Yours seems to work well

 

[Scooby074]

Time to use TBN as a notepad

Im thinking about upgrading my splitter into a processor of some kind.

So today, I happened to come across a new Palax KC35 ERGO. I figured I should take advantage and rip it off

So I made a few notes of what parts they used. Much of it is common stuff, but I was more interested in the saw and conveyor sections.

The conveyor drive motor is a White Hydraulics 49282.0000.6868.3 / 155250A6312BAAA

More importantly was the saw drive. It was a surprisingly small aluminum bodied Italian motor. Not some high speed saw motor. Bondioli HPLMA136 / IDTE3E3R40

These are likely special parts, so Im going to have to work to decode what they are, but that's for another day.

Bar was a Cannon ~16", which seemed a bit unusual for a brand new Finnish made processor to me.

 

[Scooby074]

Or maybe copying the Wallenstein gas chainsaw style. It would certainly be cheaper ( I think)

Only issue is trying to find a relatively cheap 2000lb hydraulic winch. Likely have to build my own.

 

[muddstopper]

Scooby, how much oil do you currently have to supply a saw motor?

I have been gathering parts for a processor for about 2 years now, and just about have everything I need. Having done a lot of head scratching considering a saw motor, I decided to just look at chainsaw spec's and work from there. Using a 3120 husquvarana as a base line, this saw uses 8.7hp to turn a .404 chain at 9000rpm and has a chain speed of just under 4000ftmin. Chain speed is determined buy chain pitch, X 2 X Number of teeth on sprocket, times rpms / 12.
Much is to be said of using a parker f11 motor, but cost is prohibited. While the F11 motor will turn speeds of 10,000rpms, to get max power, you also need a very high volume pump with 4-5000psi pressures. This means a very expensive pump and a high hp engine to pull it with. In other words, the cost associated with the f11 motor also comes with the extra cost of the proper pump and engine assemble to get it to function like it would on a harvester type machine. I guess saw motor selection really comes down to just how fast you want the saw to run and how deep your pockets are.

I have decided on a 1.3cuin proline motor. I can run 25gpm of 3000psi oil, a 13pin sprocket, .404 chain and get over 4000ftmin cutting speed out of the chain. It should produce around 29hp. This puts it in line pretty close to the cutting speed of the husquvarna 3120 gas powered chainsaw with about 3 times the hp. Should be a pretty hot saw setup resulting in pretty fast cut times. Of course, I havent built it yet, so this is all just theory. Hopefully, I will be able to get started on this project this winter. I have already bought a 27in .404 bar and chain, as well as the sprocket and hub to mount direct to the motor. I am stilll looking for a good pump. I also already have a 58hp diesel engine for a power plant, 8in hbeam, and trailer to mount it all on. I just found a couple of 12" belt conveyors, but need to convert them from electric to hydraulic driven. Mostly, I just need time and a little steel.

 

[Scooby074]

Scooby, how much oil do you currently have to supply a saw motor?

I have been gathering parts for a processor for about 2 years now, and just about have everything I need. Having done a lot of head scratching considering a saw motor, I decided to just look at chainsaw spec's and work from there. Using a 3120 husquvarana as a base line, this saw uses 8.7hp to turn a .404 chain at 9000rpm and has a chain speed of just under 4000ftmin. Chain speed is determined buy chain pitch, X 2 X Number of teeth on sprocket, times rpms / 12.
Much is to be said of using a parker f11 motor, but cost is prohibited. While the F11 motor will turn speeds of 10,000rpms, to get max power, you also need a very high volume pump with 4-5000psi pressures. This means a very expensive pump and a high hp engine to pull it with. In other words, the cost associated with the f11 motor also comes with the extra cost of the proper pump and engine assemble to get it to function like it would on a harvester type machine. I guess saw motor selection really comes down to just how fast you want the saw to run and how deep your pockets are.

I have decided on a 1.3cuin proline motor. I can run 25gpm of 3000psi oil, a 13pin sprocket, .404 chain and get over 4000ftmin cutting speed out of the chain. It should produce around 29hp. This puts it in line pretty close to the cutting speed of the husquvarna 3120 gas powered chainsaw with about 3 times the hp. Should be a pretty hot saw setup resulting in pretty fast cut times. Of course, I havent built it yet, so this is all just theory. Hopefully, I will be able to get started on this project this winter. I have already bought a 27in .404 bar and chain, as well as the sprocket and hub to mount direct to the motor. I am stilll looking for a good pump. I also already have a 58hp diesel engine for a power plant, 8in hbeam, and trailer to mount it all on. I just found a couple of 12" belt conveyors, but need to convert them from electric to hydraulic driven. Mostly, I just need time and a little steel.

MS, I have 22 GPM on the low pressure side of the pump (under about 650psi), and about 7.5 GPM on the high pressure side @3600RPM

I did a bit of research and found the brochure for the saw motor. Bondioli & Pavesi - QH013

The HPL MA 1 36 breaks down as follows. Its a HPL series, Motor, Group 1, Type 36. Checking the chart, that is, 0.23cu/rev, 3046 PSI, 4000RPM max. Checking the ole speed/volume chart for that motor, Ill need a bit over 15l/min to get 4000rpm out of it. Around 12l/min for 3000RPM. And around 8l/min for 2000RPM.

15l/min is 3.96 US GPM. I should have all kinds of flow for that. My pump rarely even shifts into HP mode, so Id be pulling from a 22gpm flow. Id have to have some sort of flow divider I think...

Sounds like you have quite a build there. Significantly more than what Im looking at, and considerably more machine than the Ergo35 Im basing off. Im keeping my log lift IF I make my processor. If I get some large wood, I can cut it manually, and load it into my splitter with the lift. Best of both worlds.

Building a splitter to handle all potential wood size, brings this into another price bracket for sure. One thing about the Wallenstein chainsaw processor is the ability to run a larger bar on a gas saw, vs gearing up a hydraulic system capable to turn a long chain. I can run a 20" maybe even a bit more on my Husky 562XP and it is a very fast saw. Probably faster than all but the fastest hydraulic processors with a f11.

I guess it comes down to what your typical load of logs looks like. A couple years ago, much of what I got was larger, 18"+ stuff, no good for a 16" processor, but then last year, I only had a dozen "large" logs and lots of small 4" and under.. Its real hard to know what size to design to.:mur:

The f11 is the holy grail, but its a $3000 motor, and as you say, it requires quite a bit to get the most out of it. Perfectly acceptable on a (tree) harvester where they came from and maximum production is the goal. Im not sure for a firewood processor that will likely do under 20 cd a year, like mine.

Palax is a very well respected company, so Im going to trust their engineering that says a 4000 (max) RPM, 0.23cu motor can run a 16" saw at reasonable speed (as evidenced in the above video). I couldnt determine sprocket size on the machine I looked at, so I have no real idea what chain speed would be. I cant find it in any of their literature either. I imagine it is a 3/8 pitch which seems reasonable.

Horsepower wise, the Palax is putting about 4.5 odd HP to the bar via the Bondioli motor. The bar is 15", so that means they figure about 0.3hp/inch. For your 28" bar, that would be 8.4hp, so it sounds like your 8.7 hp figure for the husky is right on. With 29 odd hp at the saw that thing will be a BEAST:thumbsup:

The more I think about this, the more I lean to the Wallenstein system, it seems like a cheap way to get a "decent" processor. I certainly have enough flow to run a 16-18 bar, no problem, but I think the Wallenstein system for my uses, will be a better, CHEAPER end result. I cant wait to see your build though!

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I've been following this for a while now with the plans to build something of my own in the next couple years. Thanks Scooby for all the info, particularly the part #s and specs.

Having looked at several small processors a the local fairs and farm shows, the Wallenstien one is top of my list to try to copy. While having a built-in cutting bar would be optimal, you can't beat the simplicity of bolting on a good saw to do the cutting.

 

[muddstopper]

Scooby, somehow I just cant see a 0.23cuin motor as having enough torque to be a very productive chainsaw. Their vid only showed cutting small stuff. Even with your 2stage pump, I think you will still have problems getting it to work properly. First, it takes over 3000psi to get the full power potential out of that motor, in order for your 2stage pump to work, it will have to be under load to get anywhere near that kind of pressure. Until that load is reached, you would be throwing a lot of oil at that little motor, I am guessing failure of the motor might come pretty fast. Not sure how the manufacturer is supplying oil to their motor, but am sure they have some hydraulic engineer figureing it out. If it works for them, it should work for you. Might be using some sort of flow control and letting return oil run the saw. ????

I like the Wallenstien processors simple design. I considered their winch for loading logs several times. Cant beat the versitility of being able to switch saws when you run into that extra large round. Unlike you, my wood seems to keep getting larger instead of smaller. I get cutoffs from log landings and its usually large and knarley. I am limiting my processor to 24"dia rounds. Large rounds in a processor usually means mulitwedge designs and your still resplitting. Large knarley rounds means tons of splitting force, beefed up hbeams, large hydraulic pumps for speed, I could go on and on. If I had any sense, I would just add the Wallenstein log winch to my current splitter and save a ton of money. I'm a glutten for punishment so my processor just keeps growing. Now planning on 2 5inch splitter cylinders,( just a brain poot, probably wont do it, but dont let me run across another 5in cyl to match the one I already have), large mulitwedge, Knuckle boom for loading on the logdeck. Knuckelboom is going to happen, already have the makings for it. This leads to looking for a larger power plant to pull the hydraulics and a bigger pump if I go to twin cylinders. Twin cylinders means more beefing up of Hbeam. Gosh, the list can go on and on. It all just depends on what you want and can afford.

 

[Scooby074]

I've been following this for a while now with the plans to build something of my own in the next couple years. Thanks Scooby for all the info, particularly the part #s and specs.

Having looked at several small processors a the local fairs and farm shows, the Wallenstien one is top of my list to try to copy. While having a built-in cutting bar would be optimal, you can't beat the simplicity of bolting on a good saw to do the cutting.

No you cant! I think its a brilliant solution for somebody who doesnt do a ton of wood. Im suprised more dont do it.

 

[Scooby074]

Scooby, somehow I just cant see a 0.23cuin motor as having enough torque to be a very productive chainsaw. Their vid only showed cutting small stuff. Even with your 2stage pump, I think you will still have problems getting it to work properly. First, it takes over 3000psi to get the full power potential out of that motor, in order for your 2stage pump to work, it will have to be under load to get anywhere near that kind of pressure. Until that load is reached, you would be throwing a lot of oil at that little motor, I am guessing failure of the motor might come pretty fast. Not sure how the manufacturer is supplying oil to their motor, but am sure they have some hydraulic engineer figureing it out. If it works for them, it should work for you. Might be using some sort of flow control and letting return oil run the saw. ????

I like the Wallenstien processors simple design. I considered their winch for loading logs several times. Cant beat the versitility of being able to switch saws when you run into that extra large round. Unlike you, my wood seems to keep getting larger instead of smaller. I get cutoffs from log landings and its usually large and knarley. I am limiting my processor to 24"dia rounds. Large rounds in a processor usually means mulitwedge designs and your still resplitting. Large knarley rounds means tons of splitting force, beefed up hbeams, large hydraulic pumps for speed, I could go on and on. If I had any sense, I would just add the Wallenstein log winch to my current splitter and save a ton of money. I'm a glutten for punishment so my processor just keeps growing. Now planning on 2 5inch splitter cylinders,( just a brain poot, probably wont do it, but dont let me run across another 5in cyl to match the one I already have), large mulitwedge, Knuckle boom for loading on the logdeck. Knuckelboom is going to happen, already have the makings for it. This leads to looking for a larger power plant to pull the hydraulics and a bigger pump if I go to twin cylinders. Twin cylinders means more beefing up of Hbeam. Gosh, the list can go on and on. It all just depends on what you want and can afford.

I couldnt believe it was .23 either! The thing was tiny. It must work though? Remember this processor is only made to handle 35mm logs at the largest. There must be a market though or the dealer wouldnt bring one in.

Making it work with the 2stage could be interesting, I agree. The Ergo 35 processor is available as a 7.5kW electric motor or PTO powered model. Thats only like 10 (electric) hp. There are 2 versions of the machine, a high speed and a low speed. The high speed pump is 40l/min (10.5 GPM) and the low speed 30l/min (7.9 GPM).

Doing some back of the napkin calculations I get a system pressure for the Palax of 2724psi.

Getting max torque out of that little motor using a 2 stage likely wont be possible, at least easily possible. Probably easier to add a seperate pump for the saw $$$. Every time I think about it, the more Im leaning to the Wallenstein system.


Your build sounds impressive.. Are you planning on doing a build thread?

 

[NS Gearhead]

Awesome splitter Jason! Where in NS are you? You never know, we could be just down the rd from eachother! LOL I'm by the airport.