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  1. #21
    Gold Member
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    Sep 2012
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    489
    Location
    Ottawa Ontario
    Tractor
    Kubota B3300SU

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Quote Originally Posted by Artisan View Post


    Anyone see anything NO GO about this?

    [/IMG]
    Artisan, your post finally convinced me to sign up.

    While the geometry of this design says it will work, I wouldn't do it that way. Keep the cyl mounted in the direction of your original design. The direction of force from the cyl is away from the pin rather than towards it. In effect, most of the force will be trying to rip the mounts apart rather than dumping the load. You definately want the longer cyl of the second design (use the longest that you can fit) but keep the base of the cyl as far as you reasonably can from the hinge.

    Another option, especially with the beef of your wagon frame is to use 2 cyl and mount them outboard on each side of the box. THis will greatly improve the starting angle. Look at one of the big articulated rock trucks as example.

  2. #22
    Platinum Member npalen's Avatar
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    Nov 2009
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    673
    Location
    Beloit, KS
    Tractor
    Kubota B9200 HSTD and Allis 720

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    The starting angle of the cylinder is important but not as important as the length of the lever arm. To get the length of the lever arm, extend the cylinder centerline (line of force) past the pivot point. Then measure the distance from the pivot point perpendicular to the cylinder centerline. using, say, a 4" diameter cylinder gives 12.56 (pi times radius squared) times the hydraulic pressure so at 1000 psi the cylinder generates 12560 lbs of force. If the length of the lever arm measured above is 12", for speaking purposes, a torque of 12,560 foot pounds of torque would be generated to lift the load.
    If you had a box length of 10' and a 2000 lb load was centered front to back the load would require 10,000 foot lbs of torque (5' x2000) Adding a contingency factor of 10% for friction would require 11,000 foot lbs of torque. This is an oversimplication since other factors such as length of cylinder stroke and required dump angle all enter into the "equation".

  3. #23
    Bronze Member amazincaucasian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    95
    Location
    mo
    Tractor
    2013 Kubota kx-121, 1988 Kubota L2202DT 1998, Bobcat 331 bobcat, F800 dump truck

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Take a flat sheet of steel and shovel the stickiest material you think you'll haul on it. You can prolly figger out the rest

  4. #24
    Veteran Member MJPetersen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    1,255
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Tractor
    YM 1510-D

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    You measured the angle wrong. The base line is between the pin on the box and the hinge pin between the box and frame. The second line is the line of the cylinder. In your case the angle is much less than 12 degrees--more like 7 or 8 degrees.

    Mike
    "In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." Solomon
    YM1510D, YM 1202 tiller, The following home made tools: Quick Hitch, KK copy dirt scoop, imitation Gannon rollover box blade, Forks on 3pt, a Rear Blade with gauge wheels and a 1.5 yd dump trailer.

  5. #25
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,885
    Location
    Monrovia, California
    Tractor
    Kubota BX25

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Quote Originally Posted by MJPetersen View Post
    You measured the angle wrong. The base line is between the pin on the box and the hinge pin between the box and frame. The second line is the line of the cylinder. In your case the angle is much less than 12 degrees--more like 7 or 8 degrees.

    Mike

    Holy Geometery Batman... I think Mike is right! BLAST!
    Back To the BatCave!

    I do not think that is enough angle on the dangle then...hmmmmmm.......

    Regards,

    Artisan

    Kubota 2012 BX25 (23H.P. / 17.7pto)
    14' Dump / Carson 12K Tow Trailer w/ movable Winch,
    Canopy, Tunes, Stabilizer Soft Pads, 10"-12"BH Buckets, FEL Grapple, Fasse Valved & Switched,
    Fire Extinguisher, ChainSaw Mount, Protective Surround / Enclosure in the works.

    Stayin' Alive (This click could save a life...)

  6. #26
    Elite Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    3,258
    Location
    the Steernbos (Holland)
    Tractor
    Zetor 3011, Zetor 5718

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    The major disadvantage of these lying cylinder setups is that the biggest force is created when the dumpbed is allmost upright, in other words where you dont need much. In the above picture, the distance from the lower cylinder pivot to the yellow line (perpendicular to the yellow line) is the working line, your lever on which the cylinder acts. You need a big cylinder to lift it out of this dead angle, and you need a lot of oil to pump (slow) to put the bucket upright with a cylinder big enough to get it started from the dead angle. Also it puts a lot of undue stress on your trailer frame.
    Here in Holland we used to make dump trailers with 3 or 4 stage telescopic cylinders, they arent that expensive. Due to the nature of a telescopic cylinder (the last stage has the smallest diameter piston, which means less force, more speed) you get the best cycle times with a given hydraulic pump.
    Free scrap is a good investment !!!
    “The worst enemy of life, freedom and the common decencies is total anarchy; their second worst enemy is total efficiency” · Aldous Huxley
    __________________
    1967 Zetor 3011, restoration in progress: Technically new, just needs the cosmetics..
    1973 Zetor 5718, shiny paint, high houred, home made loader
    1978 Zetor 5718, low houred but rough
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    2007 Volvo 440 1.9 TD based dirt buggy

  7. #27
    Veteran Member MJPetersen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    1,255
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Tractor
    YM 1510-D

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Quote Originally Posted by Renze View Post
    Here in Holland we used to make dump trailers with 3 or 4 stage telescopic cylinders, they arent that expensive. Due to the nature of a telescopic cylinder (the last stage has the smallest diameter piston, which means less force, more speed) you get the best cycle times with a given hydraulic pump.
    This is what I used in my dump trailer. I found it in the scrap yard and was able to get it for the price of scrap. It is not in ideal condition, but it works for me.

    Renze, the problem with most of the trailers that use these telescoping cylinders is that they are mounted high to allow the cylinder to stick about straight down.
    -dump-trailer-2-jpg However, they also can side dump too. I know that for my dump trailer I was trying to keep it as low as possible so that I could feel comfortable carrying my mini ex in it. The other thing with the ones that I have seen produced here with the telescoping cylinders is that they do not have a very high dump angle.

    Mike
    "In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths." Solomon
    YM1510D, YM 1202 tiller, The following home made tools: Quick Hitch, KK copy dirt scoop, imitation Gannon rollover box blade, Forks on 3pt, a Rear Blade with gauge wheels and a 1.5 yd dump trailer.

  8. #28
    Elite Member Don87's Avatar
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    May 2010
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    4,226
    Location
    SW Pa.
    Tractor
    Massey Ferguson GC2400

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Artisan,

    Don't forget to figure in the oil capacity of the cylinder you use. As Renze posted above, "You need a big cylinder to lift it out of this dead angle, and you need a lot of oil to pump (slow) to put the bucket upright with a cylinder big enough to get it started from the dead angle".

    The BX, only has a 2.5 to 3 gallon total oil capacity. Be careful not to starve the tranny of oil.
    Don

    MF GC2400, FEL, 60in.MMM, 5ft. Cultivator, Single Bottom Plow, Bush Hog RTC48 tiller, MF 2360 front mount snowblower, 5ft backblade. BXpanded Piranha toothbar.

  9. #29
    Platinum Member
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    Jul 2007
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    874
    Location
    WV
    Tractor
    John Deere 1026R

    Default

    If you need more capacity why not plumb your remotes to a double headed pump and drive one head with the remotes. The other head could pump between a reservoir and the cylinder on the trailer.

  10. #30
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    1,885
    Location
    Monrovia, California
    Tractor
    Kubota BX25

    Default Re: Dump trailer angle of the dangle

    Well....certainly a lot to take into consideration here.
    A triple cylinder or any cylinder(s) mounted anywhere but
    where I have been toying w/ them it not in the cards for
    I seek to make this platform / use the platform
    for multiple uses, which could include logs hanging over
    the front and rear. I may have to make the platform out
    of a taller material to gain the necessary "angle of the dangle".

    Indeed I have had the starvation of oil issue in my mind,
    I have not been dwelling on that issue till I hammer out
    the geometry, and cylinder size. I am just gonna tak emy time
    on this one and really try to get it right. The base trailer is
    so cool and tough, I don't want to just start willy nilly
    and have a blob.

    THANX SWICK! Now I gotta figure out how a DoubleHeadedPump
    works! :duh:

    ( I so appreicate talll the replys...thank you all)
    Regards,

    Artisan

    Kubota 2012 BX25 (23H.P. / 17.7pto)
    14' Dump / Carson 12K Tow Trailer w/ movable Winch,
    Canopy, Tunes, Stabilizer Soft Pads, 10"-12"BH Buckets, FEL Grapple, Fasse Valved & Switched,
    Fire Extinguisher, ChainSaw Mount, Protective Surround / Enclosure in the works.

    Stayin' Alive (This click could save a life...)

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