need advice how to plumb 3000 gallon surge pressure tank. for water.

[spokane 1]

So we have this 3000 gallon surge tank its clean drinking water approved
we are building a shed around the tank and about to get onto the plumbing.....

so my background is machinist so i can talk in any code or measurement......the metrix of the well is a 10gpm well but it only flows at a rate of 2gpm...so we added a well timer
we want to add this tank for additional above ground storage as many people do with low flow wells.

the tag on this tank allows us to pump up to 250psi if needed.
so the outlet to the house water system we plan to include a 1 inch 200psi poly pipe- 1 way valve to keep the tank from competing with the house supply. the one way will be exiting the tank.
the refill line will be added just ahead of the one way device.

so to refill the tank here is what i need advice.........the refill line needs to be what size 1/4 inch 3/8th inch 1/2 inch.
we want this refill hose to run full out until it balances pressures with the other pressure tank when full then shuts off.

so we don't want this tank to compete with a low flow well output at the house we only want this tank to assist. (like putting 2 pressure tanks on 1 house but one is much larger).

we want the tank to refill slowly based on a 24-48-36 hour refill table.

surge tanks are basically 3/4 full with 60lbs of air on top. 2250 gallons of water on hand to use.
if you have a handy math table or a refill device in the top of your mind.
please reply to my problem thanks.....

 

[Rustyiron]

Is this to supply a house, livestock, industrial, etc?
I'm just wondering if you could fill this tank from the well with just a "float switch" to control the pump, and fill it to almost 100%, then feed into your existing pressure tank with a small pump controlled with your normal pressure switch. I may not understand your need's. Generally 2 gpm is not too bad, at least for residential use.

 

[spokane 1]

yes this supplies a house.

the house already has a pressure switch 38psi cut in 75psi cut out.
the house already has a pressure tank 60 gallon
the house has a pump timer called pump tech set for 2 minute delay because the well runs dry during the summer. this timer shuts the pump off when a dry well is sensed waits 2 minutes and refires.
the well output is very low for a house....2gpm most wells produce 30gpm or better.

this large tank is being added to store potable well water above ground.....if plumbed right no electronics no pump should be required.
we should be able to bring the level up in this tank to 2/3rds full and then add air via the schrader valve on top of the large tank.
to make this a complete second pressure tank.

the reason the tank is being installed is the unusual dry patterns in the years......this well usually flows 10gpm during the winter but aired dry summers its drops to 2gpm.

the feed tube is the question to the very large tank.......the refill tube. it will work very much like a ballcock in a toilet...but we want the well to slowly fill it.

we technically need to Gage the fill tube so a 2gpm well works its *** off 24 hours a day. we have the possibility of pumping 2880 gallons per day 24 hours with a 2 gpm well flow.

my bet is it needs to be 1/4 inch tube which flows 1 gallon per minute at 60 psi.

 

[rustyshakelford]

yes this supplies a house.

the house already has a pressure switch 38psi cut in 75psi cut out.
the house already has a pressure tank 60 gallon
the house has a pump timer called pump tech set for 2 minute delay because the well runs dry during the summer. this timer shuts the pump off when a dry well is sensed waits 2 minutes and refires.
the well output is very low for a house....2gpm most wells produce 30gpm or better.

this large tank is being added to store potable well water above ground.....if plumbed right no electronics no pump should be required.
we should be able to bring the level up in this tank to 2/3rds full and then add air via the schrader valve on top of the large tank.
to make this a complete second pressure tank.

the reason the tank is being installed is the unusual dry patterns in the years......this well usually flows 10gpm during the winter but aired dry summers its drops to 2gpm.

the feed tube is the question to the very large tank.......the refill tube. it will work very much like a ballcock in a toilet...but we want the well to slowly fill it.

we technically need to Gage the fill tube so a 2gpm well works its *** off 24 hours a day. we have the possibility of pumping 2880 gallons per day 24 hours with a 2 gpm well flow.

my bet is it needs to be 1/4 inch tube which flows 1 gallon per minute at 60 psi.

Sounds like a 10 lb fix for a 2 lb problem. Have the well keep the above ground tank topped off and just have it supply the house. Float switch like mentioned to shut it off when it's full. House will have access to all the water just sitting static without having to worry about the pressure and all the other stuff.

Brett

 

[spokane 1]

its is a 10lb fix.....for a reason!!!!! its 10 acres with 1000 foot of branch pipes feeding horse water tanks and lawn irrigation system.
adding a reserve water tank is far cheaper than punching down 500 feet for a better flowing well. estimated cost 12,000k then another 1000 or 2000 for a good well pump. and install.

this entire surge tank and building should cost about 2 grand. tops.

 

[Dave M7040]

its is a 10lb fix.....for a reason!!!!! its 10 acres with 1000 foot of branch pipes feeding horse water tanks and lawn irrigation system.
adding a reserve water tank is far cheaper than punching down 500 feet for a better flowing well. estimated cost 12,000k then another 1000 or 2000 for a good well pump. and install.

this entire surge tank and building should cost about 2 grand. tops.

I have run 1,000 kid high school on a 5 gpm well yield.

If you have things all figured out just go for it. If you want other options than the one you have have your mind fixed on then I for one can only answer your question by saying use a Dole flow control rather than trying to find a pipe which will flow 2 gpm. It does not exist as pressures and lengths vary and all affect flow rate. |The Dole is designed to deal with the variations in pressure while producing a constant output you have selected when you buy it.

I am with others who suggest having a large tank with no air/water separator membrane storing water at 60 psi pressure is making matters complicated for no benefit.

If your well pumps at 2 usgpm, add a simple dole flow control for about $30 to the pump output and then it will run keeping pace with the well output.

This explains the operating principle:

This is where you can buy them:

https://www.deanbennettsupply.com/dole-valves.html

Store your water in the big tank at atmospheric pressure.
Use a shallow well pump like this $82 one from Home depot to pressure and supply water where you need it.

Acquaer 1/2 HP Dual Voltage Cast Iron Shallow Well Jet Pump-SJC - The Home Depot

Having a large atmospheric above ground tank has the added benefit of allowing any dissolved gases to vent off when there is no pressure keeping them dissolved in the water.

Dave M7040

 

[robstaples]

Using the tank as non pressurized will give you access to the full volume, not just when the pressure drops to 38 psi. If you run as a non bladder tank, the pressurized air above the water will be absorbed into the water and will need to be added to regularly. My pre bladder tank did it on every pump turn on cycle.
What is 24-48-36 hour refill table?
If I did it correctly, your 3000 gal sphere should be 110" diameter. Picture looks smaller??

 

[Redneck in training]

Another option would be to to plumb in a valve parallel to the check valve. That way you could fine tune how fast the tank would refill. To maintain air pressure you could plumb in a small oil less compressor. It could be automated but would require water level switch that would enable the compressor when the bubble gets too small and disable it when it gets too big.

 

[robstaples]

I would consider a different approach to your problem. Problem: match pump cycle to water availability. With a PLC ( programable logical controller) and a current transformer ( or two, if 3 phase pump) and pump control relay, you can measure when the pump cavitates due to lack of water.
Ideas for programming the plc:
Knowing current range for when pump is pumping water, then when current is less, turn off pump.
If demand for water is present, use last run pump time (determined from last run) as on time . Reset pump on time to long time once per week.
Determine off time from calendar or temperature of water, or data table ( preset)
I'm sure there are other considerations, PLCs start at $100 and are relatively easy to learn. Or contract someone.
Has significant energy savings. When you restrict a pump output, you make it work just as hard or harder and generate heat. And it runs longer. If you only pump when you need to based on water availabiliy, you save that energy. Pumping to a non pressurized tank is even easier for the pump, less energy .

Just a thought in middle of night!!

 

[Redneck in training]

I would consider a different approach to your problem. Problem: match pump cycle to water availability. With a PLC ( programable logical controller) and a current transformer ( or two, if 3 phase pump) and pump control relay, you can measure when the pump cavitates due to lack of water.
Ideas for programming the plc:
Knowing current range for when pump is pumping water, then when current is less, turn off pump.
If demand for water is present, use last run pump time (determined from last run) as on time . Reset pump on time to long time once per week.
Determine off time from calendar or temperature of water, or data table ( preset)
I'm sure there are other considerations, PLCs start at $100 and are relatively easy to learn. Or contract someone.
Has significant energy savings. When you restrict a pump output, you make it work just as hard or harder and generate heat. And it runs longer. If you only pump when you need to based on water availabiliy, you save that energy. Pumping to a non pressurized tank is even easier for the pump, less energy .

Just a thought in middle of night!!

In fact such device already exists. PumpSaver Submersible Pump Protectors