Innovation

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Thought I'd start something that might be of interest for some of you to comment on.

What is the most innovative tractor you've ever used and what makes it so?

For me the answer is easy. Versatile 276. About 105 PTO hp, articulated, PTOs front and rear, 3 points front and rear, 4 wheel drive and reversable steering. I've driven many newer and more comfortable tractors but I've never used a tractor as useful or that could do more. Where are the CUTs and SCUTs like this? It seems to me a very natural fit for small tractors to have this kind of versatility. I know it's doable I even know of two companies who produce them. But try to find a dealer! Is the North American market (buyer) just too set in old fashioned ways and concepts of what a tractor "should be" to recognize the value of these kinds of tractors? Why doesn't JD, NH and the like charge ahead with the "if you build it they will come" philosophy especially in the small tractor market?

I've similar frustrations with the availability of implements but that is a different story.

-Ed-

 

[flusher]

Hey All,

Thought I'd start something that might be of interest for some of you to comment on.

What is the most innovative tractor you've ever used and what makes it so?

For me the answer is easy. Versatile 276. About 105 PTO hp, articulated, PTOs front and rear, 3 points front and rear, 4 wheel drive and reversable steering. I've driven many newer and more comfortable tractors but I've never used a tractor as useful or that could do more. Where are the CUTs and SCUTs like this? It seems to me a very natural fit for small tractors to have this kind of versatility. I know it's doable I even know of two companies who produce them. But try to find a dealer! Is the North American market (buyer) just too set in old fashioned ways and concepts of what a tractor "should be" to recognize the value of these kinds of tractors? Why doesn't JD, NH and the like charge ahead with the "if you build it they will come" philosophy especially in the small tractor market?

I've similar frustrations with the availability of implements but that is a different story.

-Ed-

Antonio Carraro makes small tractors that are articulated and have reversibility features. Used in vineyards and for landscaping mainly.

Antonio Carraro America, Inc. The Tractor People

 

[swines]

... But try to find a dealer! Is the North American market (buyer) just too set in old fashioned ways and concepts of what a tractor "should be" to recognize the value of these kinds of tractors? Why doesn't JD, NH and the like charge ahead with the "if you build it they will come" philosophy especially in the small tractor market?

I've similar frustrations with the availability of implements but that is a different story.-Ed-

The manufacturer's make what the market says it wants. People already whine constantly about the high prices....what you're asking for would only exacerbate the whining...

Look at Carraro, Power Trac, Ventrac etc. - if the market share for those type of designs was significant, you'd see JD, Kubota, NH with competing products. The R&D required for a totally new product is sizable and not something a corporation can just take a flyer on to see if it works.

 

[TRUKFXR]

That sounds like the same argument they use when comparing American autos with the imports. Now look who the leaders are now.

 

[swines]

That sounds like the same argument they use when comparing American autos with the imports. Now look who the leaders are now.

Yeah - Ford took 5 of the top rated automobiles in the last JD Power survey. Ford and GM were rated the same as Toyota for quality in vehicles that were over 3 years old...your perceptions are just that...your perceptions.

I'd suggest you start actually going to different dealers and looking at the products instead of parroting the normal line about US manufacturers. All of the auto manufacturers have products that compete with or exceed what's available from foreign manufacturers.

In fact, if you want to look at a real piece of junk...I'd suggest going and looking at the Toyota Tundra...oh, and be sure to search on the recalls to see how many have been issued for this vehicle and how many of the Toyota dealers aren't telling their customers about them so they don't have to do the warranty work. The owners are talking about a class action suit against Toyota because of deceptive practices regarding recalls.

 

[TRUKFXR]

EasyEd,
Take a look at the New Holland BiDirectional tractor. I think this is the kind of innovation you are talking about. Gehl offers the
AL20DX Advantage, on a much smaller scale, manufactured by Avant. The Avant line is very interesting, but not available in this
country.

 

[N80]

...your perceptions are just that...your perceptions.

And your perceptions are something more than...your perceptions.... just because you are quoting JD Power? JD Power is a company that feeds the auto industry. Its a joke. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but citing JD Power hardly makes your opinion or perceptions any more valid than anyone else. And no, Toyota is not immune from quality issues, but to point to one specific vehicle is pretty meaningless. Only a tiny amount of research will uncover similar problems with any major manufacturer. But the simple truth is, the American makers are suffering. You can blame whoever or whatever you want for their problems, but when it comes down to it, they are at fault. They have a worldwide ecomony to compete in and they just aren't competing.

And by the way, I'm a Ford guy.

But, back to the topic. I'll throw out a different form of innovation that appealed to me and that is: back to basics. As more and more CUTS get more and more high tech with fancy options and ease of use features I found it refreshing to find a sound, solid, basic machine from Kubota (I'm sure the other big 3 have them too). No major technical innovations or whiz bang features, but lots of hp for the price and niceties where it counts (power steering, live independant PTO and a cupholder). To me, the innovation is packaging these machines (specifically the 'L' line) in such a way that they compete with the lower end imports. In other words, you can get a basic Kubota for a comparable price to some of the other imports. I think it is innovative to continue to appeal to a market that wants a basic, affordable and reliable machine.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I first "drove" a tractor over 45 years ago. My tractor "right of passage" happened early. It was an 8n, actually my grandfather put me in the drivers seat so he could bust bales and feed hay to cows without me getting in the way. I've been on various tractors time to time ever since - from that 8n right up to TJ series (about 400hp 4x4 dualies all around) New Hollands and a bunch of stuff in between. I've special memories of haying with a 200 series row crop case and having the tractor do SUDDEN 90 deg right turns (sliding the front wheels) when the sickle bar stopped moving forward due to vetch. Also being rocked almost asleep running an IH 2-wire (not twine) baler with the same tractor. Most of the time the tractors I used were more than adequate for the job I was doing - that 200 case barely did what I needed back then. All the tractors I used were very conventional until I used that 276 Versatile about 10 years ago. Until that time I believed loaders go on the front and mowers on the back - that is just the way God mean't for tractors to be - it was just that simple. That tractor did exactly the opposite and it made sense! Especially since the steering was reversible. It was then that I realized that North American tractor makers were worshipping the profit God as most North American people think like I used to. Of course the manufacturers prayerbook says - as long as we can charge lots of money for an inferior cheaper to make design tractor - let the suckers pay. However for me a whole new world of possibilities had opened up and I've never looked at tractors the same since.

The next tractor I saw with a front PTO and a reversable steering system were tractors made by Valtra/Valmet. Conventional looking tractors with these truly innovative features. Now I don't know but other European tractors may also have offered some of this before Valtra/Valmet. Anyway I almost immediately drove the 45 miles to see these tractors. Of course they were not selling especially well - what North American farmer could possibly trust a Finnish design for crying out loud! Yet Nokia caught on - what gives? Well my heritage is Finnish and I trust them but I do understand the fear around a dealer and parts supplier closing up and being stranded. Then one day in Eastern Alberta I saw a John Deere with a HoneyBee header mounted on the back of the tractor being driven backwards (I've no idea if the steering was reversible) swathing wheat for later combining. They do this either by swathing or with glyphosate to speed seed maturity. I though My God does John Deere get it? Why own a separate swather if one tractor can do it all? Well I've never seen it since so I guess not but maybe one model was trully innovative. Anybody know?

I'm well aware of the TV-140/145 - it is the progeny of the Versatile 150/160/256/276 which became the Ford 276 and then the Ford 9030 before becoming the TV series. I'm well aware of Antonio Carraro and Valpadana. While I don't know the originators of the Valpadana designs I've no doubt that Antonio Carraro and I would have seen eye to eye. I often wonder if the 1982 Versatile design came from seeing an Antonio Carraro design. We'll never know but it would not surprise me if it did.

What absolutely baffles me is the market today. Don't people recognize innovation? Don't people see the utility? Or is it just people following tradition? Or are they just following their wallets in order to get by? If this is the way it is what will it take to see real innovation in agricultural equipment?

-Ed-

 

[doxford jim]

Ed,

I suspect it is two things - arrogance and greed. Refusal to acknowledge that others can design better products and not wanting to branch out into new waters. The NA market thrived on innovation years ago and was in the forefront. Nowdays, they are following the rest of the world or at least not leading it. Profit making seems paramount - get stuff made in China, Korea, India (putting North Americans out of work) and maximize the profits.

Sorry, but just had to say it.

mariner

Hey All,

Thought I'd start something that might be of interest for some of you to comment on.

What is the most innovative tractor you've ever used and what makes it so?

For me the answer is easy. Versatile 276. About 105 PTO hp, articulated, PTOs front and rear, 3 points front and rear, 4 wheel drive and reversable steering. I've driven many newer and more comfortable tractors but I've never used a tractor as useful or that could do more. Where are the CUTs and SCUTs like this? It seems to me a very natural fit for small tractors to have this kind of versatility. I know it's doable I even know of two companies who produce them. But try to find a dealer! Is the North American market (buyer) just too set in old fashioned ways and concepts of what a tractor "should be" to recognize the value of these kinds of tractors? Why doesn't JD, NH and the like charge ahead with the "if you build it they will come" philosophy especially in the small tractor market?

I've similar frustrations with the availability of implements but that is a different story.

-Ed-

 

[N80]

Profit making seems paramount - get stuff made in China, Korea, India (putting North Americans out of work) and maximize the profits. mariner

I don't think there has been a time in the last few generations that profit making has not been paramount. As Americans we have been telling ourselves since the Civil War that profit is all that matters. If there is a market for innovation that is being ignored then that is ignorance and maybe arrogance. But if there is no market for it then there is no market for it. That hardly constitutes greed. Why make something nobody wants?