Toolcat 5610 vs CUT review

[radman1]

I recently purchased a Toolcat 5610 with 3 point a couple of weeks ago. Only have about 30 hours on the Toolcat (TC). Previously owned Kubota 7100 (16hp), Kubota 3710 (37hp) with GST, Case IH DX29 (29hp) HST, and still currently own JD 3720 with cab (44hp) HST. Both Kubotas and JD had FELs with skid steer attachment carriers on the front. Probably about 2000 hours total on the various CUTs. Most comparisons will be made to the cabbed JD 3720 and open station Kubota 3710. Also previously owned Bobcat 873 skidsteer (SS) (1900 hours) and now own Bobcat S300 skidsteer (850 hours.)

The TC is a nice fit between the CUTs and skid steers. The TC is most comparable to a mid to large CUT in the 40-50 hp range for capability. TC has engine hp of 56.

FEL:
1. Lift capacity:TC is rated for lift of 1500 lbs but it is widely known to have a lift closer to 2000 lbs. TC uses a relatively centered dual boom and single cylinder. A similar sized CUT will be in the same general range (1500-2500 lbs), maybe a little higher overall for the CUTs.
2. Lift height: TC will lift to 7', similar CUT will lift higher.
3. Lift construction: The boom on the TC is extremely precise with no play or slop. FEL on CUT will have more play. The central located boom on the TC has potential for bending/twisting compared to CUT FEL, but in TC posts, there hasn't seemed to be an issue with the more central boom. I haven't tried lifting with the corner of the bucket on the TC. On my CUTs I worry about lifting in the corners and can see twisting in the loader frames but never a permanent twist or breakage. The lift of the TC has sort of a self leveling feature and the bucket stays in similar postion except at the extremes of lift. Nice feature that I hadn't considered much in the past. Really noticable with pallet forks on the front.
4. Hydraulic controls: The hydraulic controls on the TC are superior to a CUT. Very smooth, easy to manipulate and control.
5. Stability: The TC is much more stable with load in the bucket compared to CUT. Most CUTs will have very light rear end or raise the rear end without extra ballast on the 3 pt, rear weights, fluid in tires etc. Not with the TC. TC has independant suspension with stops on the suspension. This helps prevent the tipping sensation we have all experienced with FELs on CUTs due to the pivoting front axle. The weight of the TC is also near 5500 lbs and has lower center of gravity which also helps significantly. The cabbed JD 3720 scares me on slopes and feels tippy. This has been noted by many. The TC is extremely stable. Both are nearly the same width.
6. Performance and use: When digging, the 68" low profile bucket of the TC seems to do better than my CUTs (65" buckets on both the Kubota and JD). Bucket of TC has bolt on teeth and prior CUTs have had tooth bars. Again, may be weight advantage for the TC. Visiblilty in seeing the bucket is vastly better for the TC but not as good as SS. Can't quite see cutting edge of bucket on TC unless I lean forward. The central boom mount of the TC makes seeing the left side of the bucket difficult unless I lean to the left to see around it. I would guess, the TC digging maybe similar to the same sized SS. My S300 is just much physically bigger than a TC and outperforms the TC.
Both the JD and Kubota had front hydraulic outlets on the FEL. I have used bobcat hydraulic augers on the CUTs. The TC does much better with the higher flow rate, and higher pressure. The TC also has variable flow rate to the front if needed and has a detent to keep the hydraulics on if needed. On the CUTs the hydraulic lever had to be tied in postion to maintain constant flow. Both my JD and TC have power management features to match engine power to the task at hand. Nice feature but not essential. The TC does a little better job of varying the speed to the task.
7. Front attachments: I have used FEL pallet forks, snow blades and hydraulic augers on my CUTs. The TC sits the attachment much closer to the operator and has improved visibilty. Many more attachments available for the TC than can be used on a CUT. This is largely due to better visibility and higher hydraulic flow rates on the TC. Snow blade should work better on TC due to weight and closer postion of blade to TC. This should decrease the pushing over of the front end by the snowblade. I use a front bobcat 90" mower in 7-8" grass and worked great.

3 POINT:
1. Lift capacity: TC is rated for 1775 lbs with bucket on front otherwise about 1400 lbs without bucket. Most similar CUTs will be in the 2000-2400 lb range. I don't know if the TC is conservatively rated like the loader for safety reasons. The TC has lifted everything I own. I own several 3 pt attachments including 6' landpride seeder, heavy duty 80" gannon box blade and 6' bushog medium duty mower. TC has single external lift cyliner.
2. Construction: Most of the componets are steel with the exception of the rocker arms which are cast in the TC. Components/parts on the TC are mostly bolt on and easy to replace including the cylinder. On some CUTs, if you break a component it may cost a lot to replace some parts that are part of the rear axle or transmission.
3. Performance and use: I miss the depth stop of the 3 pt on a CUT. Drop a rear mower on a CUT and consistently at the same height. Not so on the TC. There is no depth stop. There is a depth gauge that has to be visibily checked to get the same depth. I can see the gauge in the rear view mirror and so it is not too big of a hassel. I have a set of cylinder depth stops used on farm implements to set the same depth on older style equipment. This may work on the TC but haven't tried it yet. The hydraulic cylinder on the TC is extremely smooth and minor adjustments easy to make unlike a CUT which tends to move in more jerky adjustments when raising. The TCs lift arms are slightly longer than my CUTs. Range of the lift, up and down is greater with the TC. There is no rate of drop adjustment with the TC for heavy implements but the rate of fall is not excessively fast on the TC. I have TNT on both the TC and CUTs. Similar in performance for both.

PTO:
1. Performance and use: TC uses its high flow hydraulics to run the hydraulic motor on the pto. TC's pto hp is rated at 25. This is sigificantly less than the more direct gear powered pto of a CUT. I did bushog 2' tall prarie grass with the TC and it did fine. I was able to mow at 4 mph but if I went faster, the quality of cut was not good. The poorer cut was not due to rpm drop in the mower but instead dut to the speed of travel. The TC has a pto speed readout. Not a big drop in the speed between the thinner and thicker material. The TC can drive the pto well over 600 rpm if I increase the engine speed to max. A light will come on if speeds reach over 600 rpm. I do believe if mowing conditions are tough, the TC will suffer over a CUT due to less hp. The attachment's pto shaft is difficult to attach to the TC. There is no way to rotate the pto on the TC whether the unit is running or not. On my JD, I can shut off the motor and rotate the pto to attach the shaft. My bushog mower was a PITA to attach on the TC. I have not yet tried my tiller on the TC. I did try my 84" RFM, and again no problems in 7-8" grass. The rear attacment seems to be far to the rear of the machine on the TC. I believe this is mostly a perception rather than fact. The operator on the TC sits farther forward and the smaller rear wheels of the TC make it seem like the attachment is farther back. Visibilty of the rear attachment is probably better on the TC than on a CUT.
The hydraulic pto motor of the TC gives it a "soft start" impression when using attachments. No significant effect on the engine and no jerky start to the attachment and a nice feature. When shut off, the TC does have an internal bypass to prevent excessive pressure or damage to the motor/hydraulics. The bypass does allow a relatively fast stop to the implement but not as fast as a similar CUT with pto brake.

REAR HYDRAULICS:
The TC has 2 optional rear remotes. Most CUTs can have 1, 2, or 3 remotes. I need 3 remotes and had to use an electric diverter to convert one pair into 2 more remotes for a total of 3. Both the TC and CUT use standard couplers. TC's remotes are operated by a momentary rocker switch in the cab next to the lift lever.

SUSPENSION, STEERING, TRAVEL:
This is not a typical category when comparing CUTs, but needs to be mentioned. The TC D-series has independant front and rear suspension with springs and shocks. The ride is just fantastic for a machine of this weight and hard skid steer 8 ply tires. Small bumps and dips are not noticed and big dips/bumps are not near as bad. A path that I used to take with the CUT at 5-6 mph, was traveled at 15 mph with the TC. Top speed of the TC is 18 mph. Front and rear attachments ride much smoother on the TC due to the suspension. With heavy front or rear loads, excessive sag is stopped by rubber stops on each independant suspension. Even under heavy carrying weight, the ride is still very nice.
The 4 wheel steer of the TC is really cool. Very tight turning radius, tigher than my JD 3720 which is very good. There is also no skidding of the front tires in tight turns or pivoting of the rear tires and therefore minimal ground disturbance. The TC with traction management will transfer power to the wheel with least traction and makes it more of a true 4WD. 4WD is constantly engaged. The 4 wheel steer can be disengaged from the rear if needed. This is a good idea with rear attachments because there is a lot of swing in the rear with 4 wheel steer. Not a good idea to use 4 wheel steer with tiller or ground engaging implement. The TC has more traction than my kubota or Jd. Again, I think this is due to true 4WD and more weight in the TC.

COST:
List price of a loaded TC with high flow hydraulics, rear pto, cab a/c, 3 pt, bucket, keyless start, larger R4 tires, 2 rear hydraulics, road kit, auxillary hydraulics, attachment control, and power bobtach is about 50K. (actual price is even higher due to shipping costs and surcharges).
CUT of similar size with cab, a/c, FEL, 2 rear remotes, R4 tires, skid steer attachment, front hydraulics, extra rear lights, mirrors etc is probably around 35-40K. I was able to get my TC for 20% off list which is probably better than most deals.

CAB:
TC can carry 2 people comfortably. Cab is as quiet or quieter than my JD 3720 even though the passenger sits on top of the engine on the TC. Kubota engine on TC is quieter that Yanmar in my JD. Ergonomics in both my JD and TC are good. Suspension air-ride seat in my JD is very nice. No suspension in the TC. However, the ride/suspension is so good in the TC, a suspension seat is not needed. I added the optional step to my TC. Makes it much easier to get in and out of cab. Cab is more roomy in the TC and easier to get in and out of seat. The a/c in the TC is better than my JD. Cooler and more air flow in the TC. The seat in the TC is fairly high and could be a problem for short people. No way to raise or lower the seat in the TC. My JD 3720 cab is just under 8' tall, the TC just under 7' tall.

TRANSMISSION:
Both the TC and JD 3720 use HST-like transmissions. The TC uses 2 drive motors, one for the front and one for the rear transmissions. I like the JD twin pedal set up better than the TC. TC uses a lever like a power reverser on a CUT to change directions. Not bad, but just different. The hst on my Case-IH is somewhat jerky on slow starts and less able to minimally engage the hst on the DX29. The TC has a push button work mode which allows even greater control for finesse work and results in greater hst pedal travel for very slight movement. Most CUTs have 3 hst ranges. The TC has only hydraulically engaged high and low range. Less hunting or shifting for the right range. Range changes in the TC are a push of a button and can be done on the go which is a nice feature. Hp management on the TC is similar to load match on the JD but the TC is probably better controlled. When the TC is in neutral, the transmission automatically engages the hst brake. The TC is rock solid in neutral and won't creep. On the JD, Case and kubota have to set parking brake manually to stop any creeping. Both the JD and TC have true cruise control.

FUEL CONSUMPTION/ ENGINE:
The TC is more thirsty and it should be with 56 turbo charged horses. However, the 20 gallon fuel tank goes a long time. The kubota TC engine is very quiet for a diesel. TC has safety monitors that will automatically shut off the engine or hydraulics if they get too hot, too low on oil etc. The TC will first give warnings before it shuts down the engine. The TC has automatic glow plugs which come on when needed. They will stay on varying lengths of time depending on temperature.

Hope you enjoyed my summary of the TC vs CUT. I think price is the big factor against the TC. PTO hp could be an issue for some. Lower loader lift height is probably the third negative. However, if you want to use numerous front attachments (esp with hydraulics), smooth ride, can carry 2 people, turn very tightly with minimal ground disturbance and all around great visibility to the front or rear, great stability on slopes or when using the loader, then consider the Toolcat 5610.

 

[IslandTractor]

Interesting comparison. Can you comment on reliability issues and what it is like dealing with Bobcat dealers vs CUT dealers. It seems that an inordinate number of posts on the Toolcat forum relate to pretty serious maintenance issues compared to what we typically see on the CUT forums.

 

[radman1]

I have a very good Bobcat dealer, better than the ag dealers I use for other items. However, I don't have big complaints about the ag dealers that I use. My bobcat sales guy has been working there for 30 years. He knows his equipment and sells Kubota CUTs and RTVs as well. My sales guy is more knowledgable than most parts guys. More bocat parts in stock and parts come much quicker that with some of my ag stuff.

As far as reliability, there was an issue with Toolcat drive motors going out and depositing metal shavings in the system. This occurred with some TCs a couple of series (years) ago. A few guys have reported a few electrical issues but doesn't seem to be frequent. The reliability on my skid steer has been very good and I hope the TC is there as well.

 

[john_bud]

Nice write up.

The price is sort of high, but I guess it is more of a swiss army knife compared to a straight blade.

jb

 

[schmism]

for those of us with no idea what a toolcat is

 

[schmism]

Nice write up.

The price is sort of high, but I guess it is more of a swiss army knife compared to a straight blade.

jb

the problem ive always had with a swiss army knife... it was a jack of all trades and good at none.

what job does it do really well?

seems you tried to meld a 4wheeler, golf cart, CUT all into one and while it might do some of all of those, what of all those uses does it do really well?

 

[radman1]

the problem ive always had with a swiss army knife... it was a jack of all trades and good at none.

what job does it do really well?

seems you tried to meld a 4wheeler, golf cart, CUT all into one and while it might do some of all of those, what of all those uses does it do really well?

The TC 5610 can do nearly anything a CUT can do. A mid to large sized CUT can do a few things slightly better. A CUT may have an advantage in some tasks but the TC can do somethings a CUT can never do well as they are currently designed. Specifically, the ability to run hydraulic attachments is much better than any CUT. The ride is far superior, ability to carry 2 people safely and comfortably, tighter turning with no ground disturbance, more stable on slopes and when using loader, superior front visibilty for loader and attachments. Should the question be "What can a CUT do really well"?

I believe if price was not an issue, there would be many more TCs because they can do so many more things better than a CUT. But price does matter and is a big issue with the sellability of the tool cat. Remember, the unit I own is loaded with 9-10k in options including a/c, heat, high flow hydraulics, road package, attachment control, larger tires, hydraulic bobtach and dual rear hydraulics. Now the MSRP is closer to 41-42K and still have pto, and 3 pt. True retail price would be closer to 35K. Yet it retains all the the other advantages of the TC and no difference in performance or function.

 

[schmism]

The TC 5610 can do nearly anything a CUT can do. A mid to large sized CUT can do a few things slightly better. A CUT may have an advantage in some tasks but the TC can do somethings a CUT can never do well as they are currently designed. Specifically, the ability to run hydraulic attachments is much better than any CUT. The ride is far superior, ability to carry 2 people safely and comfortably, tighter turning with no ground disturbance, more stable on slopes and when using loader, superior front visibilty for loader and attachments. Should the question be "What can a CUT do really well"?

I believe if price was not an issue, there would be many more TCs because they can do so many more things better than a CUT. But price does matter and is a big issue with the sellability of the tool cat. Remember, the unit I own is loaded with 9-10k in options including a/c, heat, high flow hydraulics, road package, attachment control, larger tires, hydraulic bobtach and dual rear hydraulics. Now the MSRP is closer to 41-42K and still have pto, and 3 pt. True retail price would be closer to 35K. Yet it retains all the the other advantages of the TC and no difference in performance or function.

with a 5500lb weight on a footprint MUCH smaller than a CUT good luck putting it on anything but hard pack surfaces. I know my small class 2 CUT runs short on traction in mud, if my CUT does, the tool cat will be stuck long before i am. especially due to the significant difference in ground clearance.

whats the FEL range on the toolcat. looks to me like a top lift of about 4-5 feet with a maxium reach infront of only a foot or 2. those specs come up FAR short when comparing to CUT FEL's. loading manure into a truck/wagon, snatching pallets off of flatbeds (even the back of a full size pickup)

i look at it vs my little TC33 size CUT. but for 35-40K you can land yourself a much larger cab'd CUT. that can do things like bail/rake hay, pull discs, planters etc.

in the CUT world hydraulic attachments get you what? a forward mounted PHD.neither a toolcat or a CUT is going to run a grinder head. and everything you could do with a hydraulic attachment your likely going to find much cheaper PTO version for the rear.

I dont by the stability issue when it comes to FEL work. if it has a full suspension how does it support 1500-2000lbs on the FEL and ride comfy? If it rides great, then it has to bottom out the suspension before it will lift your 800lb load off the ground, and if thats the case then you have no ablity to the front wheels adjust to uneven Terran when you have a load on the FEL. which would mean the toolcat would be even more unstable on uneven ground when carrieing a FEL load than a CUT would be. There is a reason why all FEL working machines DONT have suspensions.

granted you can run circles around me in the comfort of your cab and suspension to go check the fences or snatch mail from the mail box. but then you just bought a $35K farm truck/Suzuki or golfcart.

Dont get me wrong, im shure its a great piece of machinery and if we could all have one we would. but when it comes down to it. The avg working farm/ranch/construction crew is likely to split that large price among 2 or 3 different prices of equipment that each sever a more specific purpose and therefor do it better.

 

[IslandTractor]

The TC 5610 can do nearly anything a CUT can do. A mid to large sized CUT can do a few things slightly better. A CUT may have an advantage in some tasks but the TC can do somethings a CUT can never do well as they are currently designed. Specifically, the ability to run hydraulic attachments is much better than any CUT. The ride is far superior, ability to carry 2 people safely and comfortably, tighter turning with no ground disturbance, more stable on slopes and when using loader, superior front visibilty for loader and attachments. Should the question be "What can a CUT do really well"?

I believe if price was not an issue, there would be many more TCs because they can do so many more things better than a CUT. But price does matter and is a big issue with the sellability of the tool cat. Remember, the unit I own is loaded with 9-10k in options including a/c, heat, high flow hydraulics, road package, attachment control, larger tires, hydraulic bobtach and dual rear hydraulics. Now the MSRP is closer to 41-42K and still have pto, and 3 pt. True retail price would be closer to 35K. Yet it retains all the the other advantages of the TC and no difference in performance or function.

Points taken but I think it is important not to consider the TC as an alternative to the CUT for farm or woods work. The TC was designed and is primarily marketed as an estate or grounds maintenance vehicle. Definitely not designed for field work even though it certainly can operate in the field. Likewise, it seems even more limited in woods than a cab CUT. That said, I'd love to have one for mowing in the summer or pushing snow. Great ranch utility vehicle too and would substitute for a skidsteer except in commercial settings.

The price however is pretty steep. Even a barebones version at 35K is useless until you add some Bobcat implements which are always pricey. Cost of a hydraulically powered mower is several multiples of a standard Bush Hog, finish mower or tractor PTO powered flail.

The comparison that has not been mentioned but makes more sense to me is to think of the TC as the Lexus version of the PowerTrac.

 

[radman1]

with a 5500lb weight on a footprint MUCH smaller than a CUT good luck putting it on anything but hard pack surfaces. I know my small class 2 CUT runs short on traction in mud, if my CUT does, the tool cat will be stuck long before i am. especially due to the significant difference in ground clearance.

whats the FEL range on the toolcat. looks to me like a top lift of about 4-5 feet with a maxium reach infront of only a foot or 2. those specs come up FAR short when comparing to CUT FEL's. loading manure into a truck/wagon, snatching pallets off of flatbeds (even the back of a full size pickup)

i look at it vs my little TC33 size CUT. but for 35-40K you can land yourself a much larger cab'd CUT. that can do things like bail/rake hay, pull discs, planters etc.

in the CUT world hydraulic attachments get you what? a forward mounted PHD.neither a toolcat or a CUT is going to run a grinder head. and everything you could do with a hydraulic attachment your likely going to find much cheaper PTO version for the rear.

I dont by the stability issue when it comes to FEL work. if it has a full suspension how does it support 1500-2000lbs on the FEL and ride comfy? If it rides great, then it has to bottom out the suspension before it will lift your 800lb load off the ground, and if thats the case then you have no ablity to the front wheels adjust to uneven Terran when you have a load on the FEL. which would mean the toolcat would be even more unstable on uneven ground when carrieing a FEL load than a CUT would be. There is a reason why all FEL working machines DONT have suspensions.

granted you can run circles around me in the comfort of your cab and suspension to go check the fences or snatch mail from the mail box. but then you just bought a $35K farm truck/Suzuki or golfcart.

Dont get me wrong, im shure its a great piece of machinery and if we could all have one we would. but when it comes down to it. The avg working farm/ranch/construction crew is likely to split that large price among 2 or 3 different prices of equipment that each sever a more specific purpose and therefor do it better.

The ability to travel in mud I think is poor for R4 tires, which is standard on the TC and probably most widely used on CUTs. Most CUTs with R4 tires will be stuck long before clearance is an issue. Heck, I can't even make it up a decent muddy slope with R4 tires on my CUTs compared to R1 tires. My TC has 29" x 10.5" front tires which is equal or large than the front tires on most CUTs. If you get stuck with a CUT, it is usually due to the front tires sinking, rather than a clearance issue. I would like to see a more aggressive lug type tire for the TC. I have found some in the right size, 12" wide and design similar to tires on a ditch witch trencher.

Max lift height of the TC, at the pins, is 7'. Most similar sized CUTs with are in the 8-9' range. My JD 3720 with 300CX loader has max lift height of 8'6". The TC has a max reach of 33.4" from the front of the machine to the loader pins at just over 4' My JD 3720 FEL is probably similar. The TC will be much more stable than the CUT with load on the FEL, unless the CUT has added counter weight on the rear.

The suspension is designed with a great ride. In the front and rear, there are 2 rubber stops on each A-arm. The stops are slightly angled relative to the A-arms. There is about 2" of travel before much pressure is put on the rubber stops. With greater weight, more support by the stops. Even under full load, there is still some variable compression of the rubber stops which still supports the load and yet provide a softer ride. Just by looking at the stops, I wouldn't expect a good ride under load in either front or back but I was surprised when I put it to the test. The stops give the stability to the TC under a raised load in the bucket. Unlike a CUT which has nothing to stop pivoting of the front axle (until it is too late), the rubber stops give support over a relatively wide stance. This is aided by the heavier weight and lower center of gravity in the TC. Even under full load, the ride is much smoother than a CUT due to the independant suspension on all 4 wheels. The machine still has flex and movement in the suspension under load but it is not excessive. The springs and shocks never bottom out due to the flexible rubber stops.

Mid and large ag tractors now have available front suspensions on the axle. My Case-ih maxxum 125 (125hp) is available with front suspension. My brother ordered a Case-IH magnum 245 (245 hp) with front axle suspension ( 10K more than regular axle). Both of these tractor can be fitted with FELs and axle suspension. Can't say that FELs are not found on working machines. JD actually makes a true independant front suspension for their large tractors. Supposedly, the ride is much smoother with the suspension axles. (Suspensions cabs are also common in newer ag tractors).

Like you said, in the CUT world front hydraulics get you a PHD. That is true, and the PHD is poor at that. I have used hydraulic PHDs on a CUT and they work poor in tough soil, rock etc. Give me the higher flow of a skid steer or TC to really run a hydraulic PHD. With high flow hydraulics on my TC and my Bobcat model 30C auger, I can now turn 24" and 36" bits with ease and at a decent speed. Give me the right bit and I can now go through rock.

My guess of 35K for a less optioned TC is probably about 8-10 more than that retail of a comparable open station CUT with FEL.

With the TC 5610, I can opt for the cheaper rear attachment just like the CUT. However, I can get the hydraulic front attachment if needed. Stump grinder, tree shear, tree spade, dozer blade, snow blower, finish mower or whatever. Heck, I can put a snow blower on the front and blade on the back. (or snow plow on the front and blower on the back.) My tree shear will work great on the TC in the front with higher flow rate. Tree shears are painful to use on a 3pt and work sloooowly due to low tractor flow rates. You can rent the occassional expensive front attachment for odd jobs to use on a TC that won't work on a CUT.