Refurbished tractors questions

[aczlan]

I'm shopping for new tractors constantly. I get demo's from various dealers to try. Some "name brand" and a few 2nd and 3rd tier brands. I'm purchasing 2 new 100hp tractors next month and have a need for a couple 50/60 hp smaller tractors. I'm

Would it not be cheaper to purchase and rebuild a reliable older model tractor than shopping for new??

I believe that FWJ answered that question in the 3rd to the last paragraph:

Nothing like new, for as long as new last's anyway. I buy new tractors for several reasons. Tax breaks, warranty service, and features required by my insurance carrier that aren't available on many older tractors. Otherwise, I'd be buying older tractors that are still in decent condition and saving substancial amounts of money.

Aaron Z

 

[Egon]

Yes I did read that. It's sorta like trying to straddle a barbed wire fence. It can be an untenable position.

Old is better and would cost less but I buy new because I need the new features??

 

[john_bud]

My old ford 5000 starts easier and works just as good as my new NH 7610s... both mow the same pulling a 10' mower.

soundguy

Wanna test that theory out in my back yard? (-22F with no wind this AM)

Starting to get downright nippy!


Farmwjunk - Wow! You seem to have held back then whammo! Hit us with actual factual facts.

One comparison you don't make is the old time 2wd tractors with 15-20 hp that weigh 2500 pounds to 3000 pounds. Stand them next to a modern tractor of the same weight and the hp is 30-35. One is very lightly stressed and will last as long as you care to maintain it. The other, eh, not so long.

 

[Soundguy]

Yes I did read that. It's sorta like trying to straddle a barbed wire fence. It can be an untenable position.

Old is better and would cost less but I buy new because I need the new features??

(un-ignore)(click)

Insurance.. hello.. do you actually read anybodies message before you make your right field content free quips?

(re-ignore)(click)

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Wanna test that theory out in my back yard? (-22F with no wind this AM)

Starting to get downright nippy!


.

Neither of mine have cabs.. so I'd be freezing in either of them. Since i only really mow with my 2 big tractors, there would be no need to start either of them at that temperature.

in the end though.. I'm still betting on the 5000 starting... It has a monster 4DLT battery running under that long hood, while the 7610s has a quite anemic looking smaller battery which i never was fond of. Why NH put smaller batteries in them I'll never know. Only thing I like about the smaller batter is that it ain't too bad on the back to lift like that 4DLT is.. which feels like 2+ bags of animal feed when you have to hoist it up into the battery cradle which is almost shoulder height...

soundguy

 

[Egon]

Insurance.. hello.. do you actually read anybodies message before you make your right field content free quips?

You been looking in the looking glass lately Soundguy? etc. etc.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Would it not be cheaper to purchase and rebuild a reliable older model tractor than shopping for new??

Quite a bit initially. Possibly enough to offset MOST of the advantages of new in my situation. Several extenuating circumstances come in to play though.

1. My insurance carrier requires a few items not readily available on many older tractors, due to the nature of the type of work I do. Not many folks posting here than mow medians of interstate highways with traffic present. We CAN retrofit older tractors to fit the criteria, OR, we can buy new already equipped for the job.

2. (Somewhat limited) tax advantages with buying new. They don't usually apply to the average "weekend wonder hobby farmer/ranchette owner/homeowner".

3. I'M NOT THE TYPICAL TRACTOR BUYER. It's not uncommon for us to log 2000 hours or more on a given tractor in a single season. 4 to 5 years (tops) is the useful life of a tractor under those conditions. Starting off new, there's still something left to sell/trade in at the end of that time period. A typical farmer will log 250 to 500 hours per year on average. Most homeowner/hobbiest's well under that. There's a greater percentage in reconditioning an older tractor under THOSE conditions.

And.... I'm balancing my needs against available USED tractors at this very moment. The 2 smaller tractors I'm needing may very well be low houred, well cared for used units before this next season rolls around.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Wanna test that theory out in my back yard? (-22F with no wind this AM)

Starting to get downright nippy!


Farmwjunk - Wow! You seem to have held back then whammo! Hit us with actual factual facts.

One comparison you don't make is the old time 2wd tractors with 15-20 hp that weigh 2500 pounds to 3000 pounds. Stand them next to a modern tractor of the same weight and the hp is 30-35. One is very lightly stressed and will last as long as you care to maintain it. The other, eh, not so long.

My experience with "small" tractors is somewhat limited, relative to my time spent with mid sized to larger tractors. Currently I do have a Kubota 7510 w/loader that I bought at auction with the intent of re-selling. Any experience with older tractors in the 20 to 25 hp range is limited to several N Fords and TO Fergies I've owned, along with a couple Farmall C's. Hands down, the older ones are more capable in a wide variety of typical farm chores. However, the Kubota (mfwd/loader) is a handy little tractor. I'm not fond of the operators station layout. (too small for me) It IS an impressive little thing though. I'd never have bought it had it not sold so cheap. I have a buyer lined up already, but plan on using it around home until it's sold. As for it's ability with a loader, I'll stick with my Bobcat skid steer. (But that's apples and oranges....)


I'm not UN-impressed with todays modern tractors, but I'm not at all sold on the idea that they're lightyears ahead of what was available 30 or 40 years ago. A tractor is a tractor is a tractor. If a person knows how to use one, there isn't much of anything a new one will do that the older "classics" won't do just as well. (and for a WHOLE BUNCH less money)

I'd bet I could go out this afternoon and round up 4 or 5 NICE 135 or 150 Masseys for the same money as one Jimna in the same HP class. In 90% of the instances I know of where a tractor can be used, those old Masseys will get the same job done in about the same time. In 20 years, those old Masseys will be 60 or 70 year old tractors still plugging along and that Jimna will be an ingot in a Chinese foundry.

 

[Soundguy]

. In 90% of the instances I know of where a tractor can be used, those old Masseys will get the same job done in about the same time. In 20 years, those old Masseys will be 60 or 70 year old tractors still plugging along and that Jimna will be an ingot in a Chinese foundry.

Big ditto on that.

I just dropped the oil pan on my 1955 ford 660 this weekend to replace the crushed pan ( stump! ).. had oem ford cork gasket on it..

New gasket and plugs and cleaned the points.. and new 30w oil... That oldie still makes 50psi oil pressure at anything over 400rpm... That 660 with the live pto and my heavier 850 get the bulk on the non-mowing work at my place.. The 850 has had alot more hours on her and was put away 'wet' quite a bit as evidenced by what it took to return her to service.. but that old monster ( a 1955 as well ) still manages to tote a 1200# hay bale on it's loader with no problems... The 660 will tote the bales too.. but I let the 850 do it.. larger rear end.. etc.. Most people that know fords know that the 6xx and 8xx tractors ar ethe same size.. etc. Put those up against these newer cheaply built units.. and I believe farm hit the nial on the head.. many of these oldies will still be doing an honest days worth of work while some newer ones have already been recycled.

soundguy

 

[WilliamBos]

Ok now....I've read an occasional post on here that I thought was crammed full of inaccuracies, and maybe one or two with their fair share of BS, but we now have a new standard for both!

A little background; I own 3 relatively new tractors (2 years for one and 9 months for 2 others) , all cabbed, MFWD, loaded with options, and manufactured by 2 of the leading brands in the business. I own 4 older tractors. Oldest is 52 years old. "newest" of them is 31 years old. I farmed for 35+ years. I used everything from old delapidated junk to brand new. I now own a mowing business. We mow large acreage and highway right-of-ways. I've bought and re-sold tractors over the years as a supliment to my income. In those years, I've had well over 100 tractors pass through my hands. Due to the mowing business expanding, I'm shopping for new tractors constantly. I get demo's from various dealers to try. Some "name brand" and a few 2nd and 3rd tier brands. I'm purchasing 2 new 100hp tractors next month and have a need for a couple 50/60 hp smaller tractors. I'm currently awaiting the arrival of demos from a Mahindra dealer and a Deere dealer (The smaller tractors...). Long story short, I've logged a LOT of hours on a LOT of tractors from a LOT of brands. Enough to know my way around the subject.

"New" last's but a short while, then it's simply a late model USED tractor. New breaks occasionally. Used breaks occasionally. Old breaks occasionally. Buying a brand new, expensive tractor in no way, shape or form assures you of trouble free operation. Buying JUNK probably does assure you of having issues. Owning and operating OLD tractors is a totally different concept than owning JUNK. TWO entirely different subjects. If a tractor has made it 40+ years without any major inherent issues, It's PROBABLY a sound piece of machinery. With many 2nd tier imports, that's an unknown until they accumulate enough hours to tell the tale. Then and only the can you say for certain that $10,000 or $15,000 investment was any better than a $4000 investment in that older used tractor. If you're in a position to trade in on new every few years, by all means go with new. However, if you're buying long term, why not go with something PROVEN reliable?

One of my tractors is a 1971 MF150. It logged a little over 400 hours this past summer while bush hogging. ( The least hours of any of my tractors, since it was at my home farm quite a bit and not always on jobs. I keep it at home because it's the best, the most eficient, and the most reliable tractor I own IN SPITE OF IT'S AGE) It did so without the first single mechanical issue. A few oil changes, a couple flat tires, and a home made cup holder that came unbolted, but as far as the tractor itself goes, NOTHING went wrong. 3 NEW tractors I own (Deere 6430, 2 MF 583's) weren't quite so lucky. All three had mechanical issues at one time or another. Bottom line, the old Massey is FAR MORE reliable than any of the newer ones I own and operate.

MFWD/4WD vs. 2wd. I've owned MFWD tractors prior to the 3 I have now. First one was in 1983. It's handy SOMETIMES. But from literally THOUSANDS of hours of use, I'd say without reservation, it's used LESS THAN 5% of the operational hours on any of the tractors equipped so. And the four 2WD's I own? Never missed 4wd with them. It's USEFULL at times but not essential. Given a choice between a 2nd tier brand with MFWD and a name brand with 2wd, I'd most likely opt for the 2wd. Unless you simply HAVE to have 4wd, it's not the single factor that would rule my decision making.

2nd and 3rd tier brands. If your needs aren't such that you depend on the tractor, go for it. Nothing like cheap. But if you expect funcional operation without down time, get used to the FACT that these tractors don't have the parts and/or service backing that name brands carry. That's why you'll see brands such as Deere, Cat/Challenger, Massey Ferguson, CNH, and Kubota used for commercial and production agriculture applications. Reliability has a value.

HP is HP; There are a few occasional uses where MFWD will compensate for lower HP. Tillage in loose soils, loader work, and the occasional snow plowing. But for tasks like PTO work (ie MOWING) There is NO substitute for HP. I'd take a good 45 hp 45 year old tractor over a 35hp 1DAY old tractor in a NEw York minute.

The idea that a 100 series Massey Ferguson is apt to break at regular intervals is about as ridiculous as any statement I've ever heard. These are among the best tractors ever produced at any time in our history. Sure, one that's led a life of abuse or is in the hands of an abusive operator is subject to breakdowns. So is a new tractor. But I'd bet the ranch on quite a few older models staying on the job and being reliable tractors well beyond the days when a new Jimna is holding up weeds in a fencerow. There is a perfectly good reason why even a well worn 100 series Massey sells today for MORE THAN it's original purchase price and used Jimna's with a fair amount of hours are worth pennies on the dollar.

Nothing like new, for as long as new last's anyway. I buy new tractors for several reasons. Tax breaks, warranty service, and features required by my insurance carrier that aren't available on many older tractors. Otherwise, I'd be buying older tractors that are still in decent condition and saving substancial amounts of money.

There is NOTHING inherently wrong with "old". Quality of 30 or 40 years ago is in many cases better than todays "quality". There's a constant ongoing arguement about what'll happen in 50 years with todays tractors. I get a little insight into that with my operation. I have a tractor that's 2 years old and has over 4000 hours already. The new ones won't see 10,000 hours or 40 years of service, trust me on that one. The old ones will still be here and WORKING HARD when that new Jinma is long since melted and turned into the next techno-wonder tractor. Personally, I wouldn't own a Jimna if I was paid to own it. Just my opinion. And I DO own a Massey 100 series. I'd stack it up against even a NEW Jimna for reliability and economy of operation. And I'd win that bet.

As I've said, there are reasons for buying new. But they sure weren't addressed in the post I'm replying to. Those were simply rationalizations for buying new (albiet CHEAP new) . That's OK. It wasn't MY money that was spent. Every individual has his or her own right to spend as they see fit. But let's be honest about why we do it.

Well said Bill. If we could have put a MMM on our trusty ole' 35, we would have!!

Did you ever own an 1155?? Once we get our 35 resto done, that is next in my sights.

What is required by you insurance?? Is it all the safety options that the new tractors have??