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  1. #81
    Super Member 5030's Avatar
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    Michigan, S.E. Monroe County
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    Kubota M9000 Hyd Kubota M105 shuttle

    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    .............Me, I just want to know who inserted the 'buttered string' in the hog's arse?

    I've been around hogs enough to know that the backend isn't a good place to be, especially under the tail.................
    A couple Kubota's and some payment books.....
    "If haying was easy, everyone would do it. It isn't."

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Quote Originally Posted by 5030 View Post

    I'm also a fanatic about not topping the fuel tanks everyday. I hear the new Deere's are hard on fuel, not that the old ones weren't. The 40 series had trouble passing the farm tank......
    especialy as they move into Tier4. For some reason they are choosing not to use DEF systems as every other AG and on road company is using. To meet emmissions they are burning diesel in the muffler to raise the temp and burn off the emmisions.The fuel economey is the pits, but they can avoid DEF which I guess is a good marketing tool.

  3. #83
    Super Member 5030's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Good morning Neil....

    An update on DEF for you.....

    DEF is basically 32% Urea with propolyene Glycol to keep it from freezing. It combines with diesel engine byproducts of combustion, raises the exhaust temperature to ignition and burns off the particulates. Problem is, with the tier 4 standards, the exhaust emissions have to be particulate free so even burning them, you get ash and the ash is captured in a labrynith cannister that has to be changed out and the cannister either cleaned or disposed of in an approved hazardous waste landfill.

    The cleaning machine is upwards of 20 grand. We have one at the shop and the vacuumed ash still has to go to a haz-mat approved landfill.

    You are probably aware that Caterpillar got out of the on-road engine market last fall, just for that reason. We have a few late model 3406 style cats and they don't even look like a diesel engine or sound like one and the fuel efficiency is in the toilet as it is for any Tier 4 engine. That was all well and good back when fuel was 30 cents a gallon, but at $4.00 (on road) and $3.25 (off road), it don't work, well, it does. The cost is passed on to the consumer in the product cost. We all pay in the end for the government folly. It's Regan's 'trickle down' economics at it's best---and worst.

    DDEC (Detriot Diesel), Cummins, Vol-Mack and MB all have DEF injection in the on road arena. because of mandated emission compliance, they have all dropped the standard 500K/5year engine warranty to 200/2. The engines all run ver hot. I'm seeing lots of catalyist failures, perforated head gaskets, failed overheads and lubrication problems as well as failed oil coolers.

    The new extended life coolant, when it mixes with engine oil, turns to a vaseline consistency goo that destroys an engine internally and it's rather quick. Earlier this year we had literally dozens of puked engines on shipping stands lined up in the shop and replacement engines coming in by the semi load.

    When the engine is compromised, it loads the radiator (and sometimes the ATA) as well, with goo so you replace everything.

    We had one engine, a DDEC that Detroit wanted short blocked and the accessories installed on a re-man short block. The tech's were pulling the accessories (compressor, oil cooler, water pump, injection modules) and the goo was running on the floor plus that accessories were loaded as well. That was abandoned in favor of a complete reman.

    These engines aren't running a couple hundred thousand or a few hundred hours, they are puking in a month of being new. We had one truck come in that was going to another dealer that puked in route and needed a new engine. I wonder if they told the buyer it was on the second engine prior to delivery.

    DDEC is using compound supercharging plus DEF plus a catalyist plus EGR and Cummins is using basically the same minus the compound supercharging as is MB.

    The DDEC engine has an LED array on the fuel distribution/fuel filter module to alert the operator of any malfunction plus, if an error code is generated in operation, the engine immediately derates to 15% of available torque and horsepower. DEEC uses a shaft driven (from the turbocharger) to drive a vane type supercharger behind the turbo to increase available boost ro around 42PSI the ram additional air into the combustion chamber and create a leaner (and hotter) burn. All this, coupled with ULSD is destroying engines. Remember, even the red dyed (off road) diesel we burn is ULSD.

    As the emissions criteria tightens, you see the influx of NG engines, not only in on road trucks, but in Ag tractors as well. All the players already have NG capable engines. They are used in atmospheric hazardous locations such as oilfield power and marine.

    DEF is nothing but a stop-gap solution to Tier 4 standards. None of the new generation diesels are efficient no matter what emission criteria.

    The blue filler cap (next to the fuel cap) will be a common place thing in the coming couple years.

    It's all about global warming and protecting yourself from yourself.

    I'm waiting for the generated dust emissions standards to come out, concerning combines. That will be a hoot.

    DEF has one good attribute. You can fertilize your garden with it. It's available in our parts department for 6 bucks for 2 gallons and most truck stops are refitting for dispensing in bulk.
    A couple Kubota's and some payment books.....
    "If haying was easy, everyone would do it. It isn't."

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Yea, I don't doubt that is has its problems, like anything does. The interesting thing is the fuel economey though. We're getting some really good reports back from customers on fuel economeny improvemnts of well over what the OEM is claiming.. some 15%+. more than enough to justify the added cost of the solution.

  5. #85
    Super Member 5030's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    But, the 'solution' isn't the answer...


    It's the added cost of the related hardware that needs the solution that hurts. On a Class 8 vehicle, about $20,000.00 of added hardware........

    Plus it really complicates the engine. The more complex and electronically dependent diesels become, the less reliable they are.

    Don't know about a tractor however. I would have to believe the same applies.
    A couple Kubota's and some payment books.....
    "If haying was easy, everyone would do it. It isn't."

  6. #86
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    John Deere 5083E MWFD, Kubota L3400 HST

    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    back to the topic ...... lol sorry I like being a spoil sport. When I was still deciding on my tractor, the weight difference in the tractors was a pretty big sticking point. You dont just magically lose 1300 lbs of weight. That has to come from the frame, the axles, and the structural members of the tractor.

    My other concern was that the kubota's hp was rated at a higher rpm than the Deere's. Maybe it was just so they could say it had a higher number?


    I also like playing devil's advocate. My dad has a CUT kubota with hydro and I love that tractor. The L3400 has some snot to it and I enjoy running it when I get the chance.

  7. #87
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    Rusty junk

    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Quote Originally Posted by MessickFarmEqu View Post
    especialy as they move into Tier4. For some reason they are choosing not to use DEF systems as every other AG and on road company is using. To meet emmissions they are burning diesel in the muffler to raise the temp and burn off the emmisions.The fuel economey is the pits, but they can avoid DEF which I guess is a good marketing tool.
    They're doing that for us because that system is the easiest to disable by simply plugging in a performance chip and regaining the lost fuel and lowering egts.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Lets see, buy expensive diesel, get crappy economy so you buy more, then buy DEF on top of that. Looks like a lose lose proposition. Used tractor prices are going to go up. What is the environmental impact of making more diesel and DEF and shipping it etc...

  9. #89
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    New Brunswick, Canada
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    Kubota L5030 HSTC, MF 5455, Kubota M120, Allis Chalmers 7010

    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    Actually DEF has been working out pretty well offroad. On many manufacturers for off-road engines, their tier4 with DEF is basically just a Tier 2 engine with DEF. The tier 3's with lots of egr used a lot of fuel, not quite as much as the tier4 super egr's.

  10. #90
    Super Member 5030's Avatar
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    Default Re: Deere 5083E limited VS. Kubota M8540

    One thing to keep in mind, especially on Tier 4 tractors using DEF (32% Urea) is that Urea at 32% has one nasty habit (besides it stinks....) and that is it freezes just below 20 degrees (f). That means that if you operate your tractor in the winter (I do), you have a big problem. On road trucks have provisions for heating the DEF tank and delivery lines but what about a tractor, sitting in the barn on a cold winter day? I think not.

    Because DEF engines are electronically controlled, if the ECM don't detect DEF injection, the engine derates. Not only do you have a frozen DEF supply system, you have a tractor with no balls.
    A couple Kubota's and some payment books.....
    "If haying was easy, everyone would do it. It isn't."

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