A little bit more technical advice please

[MickeyC]

Mr Soundguy, I guess the HP and the live power is why I put the 860/861 on the list. I don't know much about them though really. 860=58-60, 861=61-62...? Around the mid 40-ish HP...? They turned into the early series 4000's...? 172ci gas overhead valve...? What about the diesel models...? Live hydro...? Is there and down pressure on the 3pt arms...? Is there any down pressure on the 3000, 3600 models while that question is up. What about the tranny on the 860/861...? 5 speed...? Is the gearing lower than the 2N...? How is the 5speed compared to a hi/low tranny...? I appreciate the help, the only thing I have to compare to is my 2N and the newer JD 6115, 5303. Thank you.

 

[Soundguy]

Mr Soundguy, I guess the HP and the live power is why I put the 860/861 on the list. I don't know much about them though really. 860=58-60, 861=61-62...? Around the mid 40-ish HP...? They turned into the early series 4000's...? 172ci gas overhead valve...? What about the diesel models...? Live hydro...? Is there and down pressure on the 3pt arms...? Is there any down pressure on the 3000, 3600 models while that question is up. What about the tranny on the 860/861...? 5 speed...? Is the gearing lower than the 2N...? How is the 5speed compared to a hi/low tranny...? I appreciate the help, the only thing I have to compare to is my 2N and the newer JD 6115, 5303. Thank you.

**0 = 55-57 model years
**1 = 58-62 model years
*000 ( 4 cyl ) = 63-64 model years

an 861 and a 4000 with a 5spd are virtually the same tractor with different paint and different nose tin.

5spd has more gearing choices than the 3spd in a 2N

*6* denotes a 2 stage clutch.. thus 860/861 both are 2 stage clutch. A 4000 4 cyl, with a factory 5spd will be the 2 stage clutch model.

one difference between the **0 and **1 was carb and manifold.. thus the later will be rated ac ouple hp higher.. and drink more fuel. expect an honest 45-48 pto hp or so on a good unit.

All fords (without hyds deleted ) built late 52 and up ( naa+ series ) have live hyds.

Almost NO CUT sized tractors with OE 3pt lift has downpressure. Down pressure would serv e to reduce traction. Some add on and aftermarket / conversion 3pt setups DO have down pressure due to using DA cyls, and I have seen helper external hyds kits that would serve to add down pressure.

A high / low tranny usually gives you a wider variety of ranges. IE.. my 4000 4 cyl with a 4spd and sherman combo gives me 12 forward gears and 3 reverses. some ratio's are close depending upon ranges.. but it gives me choices of groundspeeds and rpm ranges. hi/low tranny setups before 65 meant no live pto as you could only use them on 3/4 speeds. post 65, you can have a high / low on a 3spd ( twin stick 6 spd commonly seen on the economy 2000 3 cyl.. most are non live pto.. but a few are live pto ).. and the most common is the twin stick 8spd..

The diesel 172 may be rated about 1hp less than the gasser.. but expect it to perfrom the same.. perhaps bettr in lugging ability, and it will be more fuel efficient.

parts for the 134/172 gassers are readily available.

parts for the 172 diesel's are readily available.

On the 601-2000 diesels, they used a 144ci engine ( vs the 134gasser ).. and parts for it are $$$harder$$$ to find.

In general.. I prefer 55-64 gassers, and 65+ diesels. Why? the 55-64 gasser 4 cyl.. well.. I'm good at rebuilding MS carbs.. not so good at roosa master pumps. the red tiger gassers are tough and well built.. the diesel implementation came in 59 and while good engines, I ust prefer the later series diesels due to a few issues.. like return to fuel tank routing thru the head and to a stand pipe inthe tank..e tc... On the 65+ I prefer diesels, as the gassers came with a finicky and very particular-when-rebuilding holley carb. the holley sipped gas.. but if you did not rebuild it correctly.. it made a dog out of your tractor.. not to mention the fuel line / pump routing on a 65+ gasser was a bit inconvienient.

All that said.. I'd have no qualms about getting a good running 59-64 diesel, 144 or 172, or a 65+ gasser.

( you also see LPG models too! ) I have a couple lp converted to gasoline... usually cleaner engines, and a wee bit higher compression ratio.

lastly.. in some industrial application.. you can even find 192ci red tiger engines... All 134/144/172/192 4 cyl red tigers will bolt up to the same bellhousings.. etc. thus you could shoehorn a 192 in place of a 172 or a 172 in place of a 144/134.. etc.. or the other way around.. underpower a 64 4000 with a 53 NAA engine..

 

[Soundguy]

ps. if I had the choice between a 861 and a 3600.. hmm.. that's a toughy.

the 861 will have a lil more hp, and a live pto.

the 3600 may have a live pto.. and has a better hyds arangement.

a 3600 will be a 76+ machine an 861 will be a 58-62 machine.. thus the 3600 is newer.

me.. personally... I'd probably still take the 861. 55-64 is my favorite yea range and i have more experience with them.. they will usualyl be cheaper by about 1000$ thant he 65+ models. .. though.. i will admit to buying a 4600 when looking for a 900/901 rowcrop.. it turned up simply too cheap to pass up.. probably priced a couple thou under 'list'.. and just barely priced over 00/01 series prices.. so i scooped it up. lots of tractor under that tin... 201 ci.. etc..

 

[MickeyC]

Mr Soundguy, you are a plethora of knowledge on these fords. Thank you for the more detailed explanation. I guess I am just caught up in a spot where I need to make a choice on what will work best for what I need to do (mostly some form of mowing). I am with you on the more simplistic side of the older fords. And it is also nice to be only a 30 minute drive from just8n's and Dennis Carpenter's for parts for the older ones. But the decade+ newer 3600's seem nice too, just lose some of that simplicity I guess. Point very well made about other models that come up during shopping. I would not pass on a 2000, 3000 either if they came around and the condition and price was right. You are right on track for this area... 3600's = 5-6k, 860/861 late model 4000's = 3-4k, with the 2000,3000 in the middle of that range.

 

[MickeyC]

Mr Soundguy, a couple more.... What is the power steering option on the 861/4000....? I see some with ps. Factory option...? Reliable system...? Or is it an add on...? I ask about the 5speed gearing cause the 1st gear in the N isn't that low.... It goes a little quick. And also I thought I read in another post about that 5speed, and you mentioned something to the effect of... 3rd/R where up top and was almost like a syncro tranny...? Sorry I could be off on that, been reading a lot. Thanks

 

[Soundguy]

ford 1st gears on non dual range trannies are a tad tall. even the 5spd 1st gear is a hair fast.

starting in 55, power steering became optional. Rowcrops and ag models had a different steering setup ( power AND manual )

the power steering systems are just about as good as any other part of the machine. it's a pump, valve body in the steering column, and cylinders, lines.

the lines can be repalced. the valve block can be rebuilt.. it's mostly springs and balls.

the pump has a replacement available..e tc.

the steering cyl's ar eprobably the biggest issue. they are not 'easilly' rebuilt' IE.. some cut them apart, rebuild, and reweld. Not as bad as it sounds.. but not a do it yourself job ( unless you are a hyds repair shop that is! )

there ARE a few different aftermarket power steering options as well..

5spd is a funny tranny. the shifter movesvia rotating forward or aft, with a central neutral. it also has 3 vertical gates. meaning all the way up and forward is 3rd, all the way up and back is reverse. in t he middle positin fore / aft is 1/2
and at the lowest setting fore / aft is 4/5

thuis she has 3 neutrals. a neutral at each level between a gear.

since 3/r are across from each other it KIND OF functions like a 'shuttle' shift.. however it is NOT synchronized. thus you have to clutch and stop for all shifting.

so you could think of it as a limited non sync shuttle.. can be good for loader work, as mid rpm and 3/r are good loader speeds..

 

[MickeyC]

Mr Soundguy, thanks for the info. I get ya on the shift pattern and all that stuff, I see what you are saying about 3/R being across from each other. I guess the 3/R on those 860/861/4000's are close in range, like you said for loader work and stuff. My 2N, 2/R are across and they are close in range and that is fine for transport (back and forth). But the 1 seems too "tall" as you would say- when using implements, let alone 2nd. I see under your avatar you have listed a 2N... How is the first gear in your N compared to 1st. In one of your 5 speeds? I believe I could run taller gears and more ground speed if I where to have more power... kinda why I am shopping I guess.The power steering would be cool, but not cool enough to drop $1200-1300. For one of those aftermarket kits. With that said I am looking everyday, just waiting for something nice to pop up. I appreciate any info you have to share. Thanks for your time and knowledge.

 

[Soundguy]

i'm not fond of the 3spd.

Most of my 5spds are on rowcrops mind you.. but I feel the 5spd 1st is lower groundspeed.. though I don't have a manual in front of me to verify that.

 

[MickeyC]

Hey Mr Soundguy I may have a couple tractors to go look at. I was doing some reading and had a couple Ford knowledge questions for you sir. I read in a thread somewhere, and you made a good point about how easily the tin and hood emblem could get swapped over the years between the 600-800 series tractors. I guess the main reason I ask, like you have mentioned above that the 134/172/192 all hold the same bolt up abilities. So I would like to make sure a 800 series is indeed a 800... I have come up with the following... Engine cast number are as follows... EAE6015=134ci and EAF6015=172ci... Is that right? And something with the letter "J" also determines something...? And I believe the way you explained it above was that a 860 would have the smaller carb, different intake set-up than the larger carb/intake of the 861...? Therefore you said was the difference in a couple HP...? Is there any other numbers or visual differences to understand the 800 series? Apart from any miss painted/matched tin or hood emblems. Like I mentioned above I am really only interested in the 860/861 out of all the 800 series at this point. Thanks for any info you can share with me.

 

[Soundguy]

ont he 55-62 machines, the trans has a sn and 3 digit model # stamped in.

on the model number.. the first digit denotes engine size. it.. 5-6-7 are all 134ci while 8-9 are 172ci

post 59 models with a diesel will have a D listed.

Industrials and 63-64 models will have a longer model ID you decode with the manual.

8XX models also have a larger rear end , and hd axles. The axles you can't 'see' the rear end casting is a minor difference that will take a trained eye, in order to see the scallop out near the 3pt rocker. Later models had the largger fuel lines.. went from 1/4" to 5/16" and the larger carb mouths.. etc.

*4* will be a 4spd / non live pto

*5* will be a 5spd / non live pto

*6* will be a 5spd / live pto / dual clutch.

4 spd models can be equipped with a sherman aux trans, and will list a 'S'

here are some basics on engine castings. it is not exhaustive.. and does not cover the 192

EAE 6015 - 134 1953-1957
EAF 6015 - 172 1953-1957
310905 - 134 1958-1959
310609 - 172 1958-1959
B9NN-6015C - 134 late 1959 early 1960
B9NN-6015A - 144 late 1959 early 1960
B9NN6015J - 172 late 1959 early 1960
CONN-6015C - 134 late 1960-1964
CONN-6015J - 172 late 1960-1964

Lastly.. the 63/64 4000 model was essentially an updated 801.. if it had a 5spd oem, then that would be a dual clutch like a 861. IE.. I am not aware of any OEM 4000 5 spds that were single clutch. DO verify the trans # when looking, as it would be possible to swap in an 851 trans into a 4000 and thus have a 4000 5spd, non live clutch, due to the swap.

Thus.. if you want an 860/861, then also look at a 4000 with the oem 5spd.

If you don't mind a row crop.. you can look at a 960, 961 and 4000 rowcrop. the 961-4000 could be had oe narrow or wide front.. I'd go wide unless mowing. the 960 had a oe 1 piece pedistal, and were only OE available as narrow front.. though wide front conversions were put out by aftermarkets ( swartz ).. late into production, the 2 piece pedistal came out, and thus oe wide fronts were available.. besides the fact that you can swap single and 2 piece pedistals easilly / directly bolt on compatible.. so anything is possible..