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  1. #21
    Super Star Member murphy1244's Avatar
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    Ohio
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    Kioti DK-40, MF-135, Ventrac 4500Y

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    What is on the property now? That might open up some answers.
    Murph

  2. #22
    Elite Member
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    Knoxville, TN
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    Bobcat CT225

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dgeesaman View Post
    I mentioned the ZTR to manage the trees, fence edges, and buildings with less clumsiness than the tractor. Plus I get to skip rearranging the attachments for mowing.
    A zero-turn will absolutely destroy a tractor if you have a lot of mowing around obstacles and near buildings or fences. When you have a 3000-5000 lb tractor 6" off a fence line to mow near it, it is very easy to mess up and damage the fence. Likewise if you are near a building. A zero turn will do that all day, and literally run rings around the tractor if there are garden beds, trees, etc... A good quality riding mower may also do the trick, but with the amount of mowing you're going to be doing, I would be seriously considering the longevity and reliability of a used commercial-grade ZTR.

    I wasn't entirely clear in my first post - I would like to handle large square bales but it won't make sense if it adds $10k to the equipment investment. $10k buys a lot of small bales, or at least buys me a year to consider adding a skidsteer instead. This is why I was trying to understand the requirements for lifting.
    It's my opinion that you're going to have to go up substantially in tractor size/weight, in order to get a tractor with a loader that can safely handle a round bale on the loader. As others have pointed out, a loader's capacity is measured at the pins, or a few inches ahead of the pins, but a large bale sticks out several feet, and that makes a difference. All of the tasks you listed could be accomplished with a CUT in the 2000-3500 lb / 20-30 hp range, but few, if any of those tractors are going to have a loader that will make you happy toting a large bale.

    For example, in the Kioti line, the CK27, CK30, and CK35 use the KL130 loader, with a full-height lift capacity of 1,155 lbs at the pins. I think It's safe to say this wouldn't lift an 800 lb bale very well, with all that weight hanging out past the pins. You'd probably get it off the ground if you needed to transport it, but if you were stacking or loading a trailer, you wouldn't be very happy. The next one up in line is the KL401, which goes on the DK40, DK45, and DK50 tractors. It has a comparable lift capacity of 2,761 lbs. More than enough. But there's a real jump in price between the CK and the DK line. Is it worth it to you? In general, a smaller CUT in the 20-30 HP range can easily be had used, or even new if you get lucky, in the $10k-$15k range.

    One thing to bear in mind is that you can get a scissor for a hay spear on the three-point, and that may do the trick for you. Tractors have much higher capacity on their three-point than on their loader arms. Here's a link to an example product.

  3. #23
    Silver Member
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    Oct 2010
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    114
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    East Kootenays, British Columbia
    Tractor
    2009 Bobcat CT 235

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dgeesaman View Post
    Hello everyone, my first post here.

    I'm shopping for a tractor / equipment to handle a 15 acre horse property. I have attached an aerial of the plot with the areas currently pasture fenced (blue) and future pastures (light blue). I expect to do these chores with the following order of time spent:
    1) Mowing perimeters and yards (weekly), 5 acres total.
    2) Mowing pastures (monthly), 5 acres total.
    3) Dragging indoor and outdoor riding areas.
    4) Moving manure.
    5) Moving hay bales and other consumables from storage building to barn.
    6) Plowing driveway in winter. We get some winter weather here in PA but most years the largest snowstorm leaves less than a foot. Snow is wet and heavy as often as it is powdery.
    7) Spraying the pastures, aerating, and fertilizing activities maybe.
    (Fence posts will be driven professionally, excavations will be subbed, and I have no intent to harvest wood in the wooded section)

    This is where you come in. I have no experience with this stuff except for a couple of times dragging a riding arena using someone else's rig. I'm a mechanical engineer so while I pick up this stuff quickly, I don't know things I've never been exposed to. If things go well I'll need a tractor by mid-May so I'm using the meantime to do my homework. My current lawn equipment boils down to a small push mower and a light duty weed-eater, ha. I foresee buying at least a 20hp 4WD compact tractor with quick attach loader.

    Major questions:
    1) Would you try and mow this property using a tractor implement, or a commercial (zero-turn style) mower? Two clarifications here: the existing turf is not very bumpy and I'm willing to aerate and roll it annually to maintain that, and I believe in keeping pasture grass no higher than 6-7" and mowing down to 4-5". So the question is whether I should consider a separate mower.
    2) What kind of tires make the most sense if the ground is generally smooth, no rocks, and areas of the turf can be wet at times?
    3) If we wanted to buy and handle large square hay bales, how would I decide if a tractor that is safe to move and stack them? Large squares run 800lb on average, and for horse feeding I really don't expect to buy oversized and heavy bales.
    4) Following question 3, if I get a bale spear for the FEL, is the 500mm/full height lift capacity (say, 1100# for a Boomer 30) something that won't tip over the tractor?

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

    Dave

    Attachment 307992
    You mentioned your large square bales weigh 800 lbs. Make very sure you know the weights on the large squares, 4x4x8 can weigh 1500 lbs. I currently have a square bale at my place, 2x4x8 that weighs 700 lbs (we have 10 horses). It seems to me you are really involved with horses and therefore dealing with hay bales. If you are considering large squares or round then get a tractor with a loader capable of lifting a minimum of 1700 lbs or more then you can handle any type of bale.

    I have a Bobcat CT 235 that will lift about 1,000 lbs give or take, and I am currently buying small bales but would like to move up to larger square bales (cheaper). To be honest I didn't know they made 2x4x8 bales until I had one delivered last month. I guess they are making these now for all the horse people who have CUT tractors (30-35 hp) with loaders that max out in the 1000,1100 lb range.

    My tractor is great for 5 acres, small enough to get around and just big enough for all other chores (excluding big bales!) I have a 3pt hitch finish mower and mow about 3 acres. I have two sets of tires, turfs for summer and Ags for winter and swap them out every spring and fall and this is likely a best case scenario. The only reason I've got both sets is because the dealer messed up when I bought the machine and delivered it with turf and I wanted Ags. Long story short, they gave me the Ags and rims because of a back order problem.

    Fred
    Parkside

  4. #24
    Member cmbertrand's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    34
    Tractor
    03' TC40da NH, 95' JCB 214

    Default

    Great looking horse property, looks like dualing round pens!

    Lots of advice on hardware already but I wanted to share some reasoning that I just went through. Folks talk about seat time and hey I enjoy working a tractor as well BUT grass cutting can get old for me. So think about what you will be doing the very most out there and focus your money around that. Looks to me most of your time will be spent cutting grass so with your want to cut as often as you do I would look for a good wide zero turn. As for a tractor...lots of input already but I just sold a 40hp new holland boomer 2004 which would handle round bales. There a plenty of used ones out there and if you ballast the rear tires as well as hang a blade on the back...well that's the combination that worked for me. If you have a significant other there could be a rear finish bought later and two mowing is faster than one. Fine looking property and once again, speed up the mowing and enjoy those horses.

  5. #25
    Gold Member cletus99's Avatar
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    May 2012
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    285
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    Doerun, GA
    Tractor
    2011 Kubota L3800HST

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    I haven稚 seen the Mahindra 3016 mentioned yet. I知 not an expert by no means, but it has the highest rated lift capacity of all the other compact tractors in it痴 size. I知 sure others with more experience can give more input than me though. I致e been looking at this tractor for a while and as soon as I can afford it I値l be getting me one. These are the loader specs right out of the brochure. Oh and this tractor advertises new for around $15000 for the shuttle and $850 more for the HST in my area.

    Maximum Lift Height 99.0"
    Clearance with Attachment Dumped 79.8"
    Reach at Maximum Height 22.5"
    Maximum Dump Angle 42ー
    Attachment Rollback Angle 19ー
    Digging Depth Below Grade 6.0"
    Lift Capacity to Full Height @ Pivot Pins (lbs.) 1650
    Breakout Force @ Pivot Pins (lbs.) 2650
    Rated Flow (Tractor System) 7.8 gpm
    Attachment Width used for specification 60"
    Attachment rated capacity used for specification 8.6 cu. ft.
    Raise Boom (seconds) 3.9
    Lower Boom (seconds) 2.4
    Dump Attachment (seconds) 2.6
    Retract Attachment (seconds) 2.6
    Loader Shipping Weight (lbs.) 780

  6. #26
    Veteran Member kiotiken's Avatar
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    Dunrobin, Ont
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    2012 Kioti DK45 HST Cab

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by dgeesaman View Post
    5 acres of yard, 5 acres of pasture. Pastures are not rough and we plan to build some sacrifice areas so they don't destroy the turf when it's fragile.

    If I were to do the mowing with the tractor I'd expect to have a quick attach loader and mow without it.

    Before we get into the question of what tractor will handle an 800lb square bale, are you saying that the lift rating at full height is not the limiting factor? If that's the case, what is the limiting factor?

    As for the 40+ hp tractor and ZTR option, that's not a financial possibility. My budget is 20k, 25k tops, and I was not really expecting to buy new.
    Sorry, I obviously read your first post a little to quick and turned the , in front of the 5 acres into a . With 5 acres, a regular lawn tractor is obviously out, and a ZTR or similar commercial machine is the way to go. There are several options including the 3 wheeled commercial machines that would be cost effective and get the job done.

    You need a bigger tractor, if for no other reason than the lift capacity of the FEL. The lift to full height is not the limiting factor, it's how far that load is in front of the pivot point that's is the limiting factor. As an illustration, my DK45 has a lift to full height of 2700+ lbs, but I get close to my limit with a pallet of firewood that weighs about 1500 lbs. I could probably stack a pallet that was 2000 lbs, but that would be it, and I wouldn't want to try that to full height.

    It's been suggested that a L3800 or other tractor with 1200# lift capacity would be good for your purposes. I respectfully disagree. Take the L3800 for example, but the same will apply to every other similar machine. It has the LA524 FEL with a lift to full height of 1131# (a tip for kubota is the loader model number is the lift capacity in KG, so the LA524 is the 4th generation of the loader that will lift 520 KG). Sounds good so far for an 800# bale BUT that lift capacity falls to 855# at 500mm in front of the pin (half the width of your bucket). Add your bale spear and you're already SOL, but that bale is going to stick out further than that. You will not lift 800 lbs with that tractor, and there's a recent thread here showing this exact real life experience. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/k...t-me-down.html

    TractorData.com Kubota L3800 tractor attachments information

    This requirement makes your selection very easy, it's consistent with all brands. You need a FEL with a 2000+ lbs lift capacity. That means a JD 4000 series (CX400 loader,2100+ lbs), possibly a L3940 (only 1800+ lbs) but preferably a L4240 (2400+ lbs), Kioti DK40/45/50 (2700+ lbs) or the comparible LS model (don't know the model, but loader is almost the same as Kioti). Plenty of other choices, these are just the ones I'm more familiar with.

    Who makes what tractor for who is something that's very difficult to keep track of since it changes from year to year. Choose a few specific machines that you may be interested in and report back here, somebody will know all about it. You should be able to find two good used machines for under 25K.

  7. #27
    Silver Member
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    chichester nh
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    mahindra 2816 hst tlb

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    i never knew hay weighs that much i was told by a very wise man that whatever weight you feel you will be working with to make sure you get a loader that will handle double that amount

  8. #28
    Platinum Member rmorey's Avatar
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    Eastern Ontario
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    Kioti DK40SE HST Cab, Mechron 2200

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    I recently bought an Empyre Indoor wood furnace. It was delivered to the house on a box truck with full lift gate. The driver was alone and was told "the owner has a tractor with forks". It weighs 945lb. according to the brochure. It was palleted and wrapped. I had a Kioti CK25 with KL130 loader, and as was previously mentioned, has a limit of 1,100 lbs +/-.

    I got the forks (clamp ons) under it, and nothing (obviously) but I was able to tip it forward, put a 6" block at the back of the bucket, then tip back level. Now I'm 6" off the ground. I slowly backed up to the woodshed and placed the pallet inside on the floor. Not good for the tractor or the nerves... Get a little larger, and if neccesary, a little older machine (to stay in budget) and be done with it. If you max out the loader, every time you use it, your gonna break something. My worth.
    Rick

  9. #29
    Veteran Member kiotiken's Avatar
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    Dunrobin, Ont
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    2012 Kioti DK45 HST Cab

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by rmorey View Post
    I recently bought an Empyre Indoor wood furnace. It was delivered to the house on a box truck with full lift gate. The driver was alone and was told "the owner has a tractor with forks". It weighs 945lb. according to the brochure. It was palleted and wrapped. I had a Kioti CK25 with KL130 loader, and as was previously mentioned, has a limit of 1,100 lbs +/-.

    I got the forks (clamp ons) under it, and nothing (obviously) but I was able to tip it forward, put a 6" block at the back of the bucket, then tip back level. Now I'm 6" off the ground. I slowly backed up to the woodshed and placed the pallet inside on the floor. Not good for the tractor or the nerves... Get a little larger, and if neccesary, a little older machine (to stay in budget) and be done with it. If you max out the loader, every time you use it, your gonna break something. My worth.
    I found my CK30 could significantly out curl what it could lift and I find my DK45 can out lift what it can curl.

    Your 1100 lbs lift is at full height, the truck bed isn't even close to full height and your lift capacity is MUCH higher at that height. The fact that you couldn't budge it shows what happens as you move away from the pivot points and lift higher. I once did a little experiment with my CK30 (same KL130 loader as rmorey for non Kioti people). I had picked up a large rock that I had dug out of the ground. On flat dry ground at a stop, I lifted the rock as high as I could. I got it about 5 ft off the ground before I ran out of lift. The higher you go, the less you can lift, and it's a step curve downward.

  10. #30
    Veteran Member chim's Avatar
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    Lancaster County, PA
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    Kubota L3200, Ford 1210

    Default Re: Compact Tractor shopping - some questions

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuabardwell View Post
    A zero-turn will absolutely destroy a tractor if you have a lot of mowing around obstacles and near buildings or fences. When you have a 3000-5000 lb tractor 6" off a fence line to mow near it, it is very easy to mess up and damage the fence. Likewise if you are near a building. A zero turn will do that all day, and literally run rings around the tractor if there are garden beds, trees, etc... A good quality riding mower may also do the trick, but with the amount of mowing you're going to be doing, I would be seriously considering the longevity and reliability of a used commercial-grade ZTR..................................
    That's a bit dramatic in my opinion. I could agree with a statement like "Mowing with a RFM requires a certain amount of attention be paid when turning". My only experience with something other than a MMM or RFM was with a Deere the in-laws had. I don't recall the model number but it was a five-footer with the deck in front. Didn't care for it at all.

    I made the switch from MMM to RFM 21 years and two tractors ago and am really happy with a RFM. The latest tractor is an L3200 with a 6' RFM. It's very comfortable to operate, cuts 2 acres an hour and the grass looks nice. There are a fair number of obstacles for me to mow around. Unless the yard looks like the circus is in town, cutting around things shouldn't be difficult.

    I have no idea what it takes to handle bales. The L3200 will pick the back end of my Jeep Wrangler off the ground. I haven't had the desire to see how high it would go, just picked it a foot or so and move it when it wouldn't start.


    EDIT TO ADD (QUESTION): Could someone who actually uses a ZTR give us solid info on mowing time? I know that it took me around 2:15 to mow our 2.25 lot with a 5-footer RFM and almost exactly 2 hours even with the 6-footer. What kind of mowing times can ZTR's turn in? I see mowing businesses with what appears to be summer help bouncing around on ZTR's at a very spirited pace (and then mowing it the second time to chop up the green turds they left behind in their frenzy).
    Last edited by chim; 03-14-2013 at 01:55 PM.

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