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  1. #11
    Veteran Member CliffordK's Avatar
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    Toro D200, Ford 1715, International 884,

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    I'm not sure there is that big of a difference in engine size between gas and diesel, at least in the vehicles.

    VW sells about 2L gas and Diesel cars.
    a 350 gas engine is about 5.7L
    a 454 gas engine is a big engine, about 7.4L.
    Ford Powerstroke engines are between 6 and 7.3L.

    In Italy a few decades ago (not sure about today), Diesel had essentially no fuel taxes. Gasoline was taxed about 3x the value of the gas. However, the Diesels had higher annual registration taxes to make up for the difference. Anyway, the Diesels were convenient for people who drove a lot.

    The bottom of the barrel was the half-liter Fiat 500, and 650cc Fiat 126, both with gasoline engines, although the new reincarnated Fiat 500 is available in Europe with a very efficient Diesel engine (about 56 mpg), unlike the more mediocre US version (27 to 40 mpg)

  2. #12
    Veteran Member GManBart's Avatar
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    Belleville, MI
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    Ford 8N, LS R4047H, Massey Ferguson 241, Hustler Sport ZTR

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    I guess I missed where this has anything to do with buying/pricing/comparison of tractors????

  3. #13
    Platinum Member sd455dan's Avatar
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    North Idaho
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    Ford 3000-Rhino 554,Co-Op ,Honda ,Gilson riding mowers

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    Quote Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
    The Diesels, of course, have to deal with higher compression. The injection pumps would have been more complicated than the old carburettors, but perhaps that is all changing today with injected auto engines and all the electronic controls.

    How much more could it add to the production cost? $500? $1000? For a "cheap" $20K car, that would mean $20K vs $21K (plus a bit more for the novelty).

    As I understand it, sulfur has been a problem with adding catalytic converters to Diesel engines, but that is no longer the case. Turbocharging helps with cleaning the emissions, but particulates remain. Now with the DPF and Urea, the Diesel engines with all the smog controls should be clean enough (although the smog stuff does add to the purchase and operation costs).

    I think part of the problem is that auto manufactures are very slow to adapt to consumer desires. For years, there has been a push for better HP in the USA, and better mileage elsewhere.

    AS far as cost goes -consider
    your average Cummiins common rail diesel engine , just a set of new replacement injectors can run around $2000 and I believe a remanufactured engine costs around $12000 from them... But if cared for 300,000 to 500,000 miles isn't uncommon .

    I believe the (diesel ) option on the Dodge trucks is an additional charge of over $6000... Diesels DO cost more at the initial purchase point...

  4. #14
    Elite Member
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    Oklahoma
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    JD cut

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    The Internet rumor years ago was that GM, having such a bad reputation after its fiasco with diesel cars, lobbied Congress for emissions standards high enough on diesel cars that they wouldn't have any competition from the foreign car manufacturers exporting diesel cars to the US. In other words, GM didn't want diesel cars in the US because they knew the public would be reluctant to buy from them again.

    At least that was the scoop VW of America was putting out back then. VW and MB were the main companies that said, "ok, you want clean diesel, we can do clean diesel."

    A latent problem with diesel cars is dealorship mechanics and service. The mechanics at the dealorships mostly see gasoline vehicles, so they sometimes make mistakes by not following VW guidelines. For example, VW dealors are notorious for putting the wrong oil (which just happens to be much cheaper) in TDI's which, of course, can void your warranty.

  5. #15
    New Member
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    Mahindra 4010

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    An engine is not just an engine. I give you a short overview from the engineering side of the automotive/heavy-duty engine industry. A modern diesel engine will cost significantly more than a comparable-sized gasoline engine (as sd455dan stated, the injectors are significantly more expensive). Many of these high-cost components deal with diesel having a much higher injection pressure than gasoline injectors). You have to consider the costs of injectors, common rail fuel system, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, as well as glow plugs, turbocharger (a couple grand there) and intercooler, just to name a partial list. That's just in parts for the engine. Today's DPF and SCR systems add a couple grand alone in emissions systems - that's one major reason (along with reliability) truck sales spiked in 2006 and plummeted in 2007 for the new emission standards. Also, don't discount the heavy investment in R&D and manufacturing - again, two different animals in naturally aspirated gasoline and turbocharged diesel, although turbocharged gasoline developers are taking experience from the turbo diesel side.

  6. #16
    Gold Member Boeing's Avatar
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    Botetourt, Va
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    kubota L3010

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    Alot of good thought here.....
    Jeep had the "cajones" to build a diesel back in '04 or so that used a Mercedes Diesel. When Chrysler separated from Mercedes they dropped the diesel. I read that they are bringing it back in Sept using an Italian diesel.

    I feel that many would buy diesels if they were offered. I keep an suv or a car/truck in superb condition, inside and out, and IF the driveline would last I could easily keep it 10-15 years. This attitude COULD be the very reason why Detroit won't offer them. Can we expect Toyota to put them in the Tacoma and SUV's? then Nisson....then Hundai (however you spell that)
    BTW, I paid about TWICE as much for a 550W GENERATOR just because it is a diesel and the fuel does not "spoil"

  7. #17
    Veteran Member alchemysa's Avatar
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    South Australia
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    Kubota B1550HSD

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    Whats the price difference for a diesel vs petrol engine in a mid size car in Europe? Here in Ausralia its about 3 grand even for something as small as a Hyundai i30. Motoring organizations advise that its just not worth the extra cost unless you do very high milages. (How many people are going to do high miles in an i30).
    .

    TIME IS RUTHLESS.

  8. #18
    Gold Member
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    Albion, Indiana
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    1710 Ford

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    You guys keep talking cost differential but what you are really talking is price differential. Back in the 80's GM and Ford had workhorse V6s (3800 and 3.0L respectively) that were cheap and good motors. They cost about $700 each. Those pushrod motors have been set aside for the overhead cam, multiple valve type engines that cost $2200 or so. Things like high pressure gas injection and other newer features have pushed that cost up to $3000. The bottom line is that there used to be a major cost differential between a high pressure injection diesel and a pushrod gas engine. but that differential has decreased dramatically. There is maybe a $1k cost differential. Note that I am talking about the variable cost to build an engine - not including all the overhead, development, etc.

    The numbers that keep getting thrown around here are pricing differences. There really is not that much anymore.

  9. #19
    Veteran Member MHarryE's Avatar
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    JD 7720; Kubota M135GX, NH TS115A; JD 6230; Kubota L5740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alchemysa View Post
    Whats the price difference for a diesel vs petrol engine in a mid size car in Europe? Here in Ausralia its about 3 grand even for something as small as a Hyundai i30. Motoring organizations advise that its just not worth the extra cost unless you do very high milages. (How many people are going to do high miles in an i30).
    Not sure how it is in Australia but there are a lot more things to consider beside purchase price. I lived in France '97 - '99. I bought a BMW 325TD. I seldom found a used gasoline on the lot. I was told resale on a gasoline BMW was nil. Back then we still had the franc - about 4 franc per liter for diesel and 5 franc for gasoline. Then came the tax. My 325TD was taxed at 7 CV or horsepower while I believe the gasoline equivalent was 18 CV. I can't remember the tax rule but the difference was many franc per year.

    After returning to America I spent at least one week each month overseas, mostly Europe. That meant probably over 100 rentals, probably 90% diesel. I dreaded getting stuck with a gas rental. European stop and go traffic - gas engines really suck when you have to inch forward in traffic due to lack of low end torque. Quickly end up with clutch chatter. You Aussies, unless you live in Sydney, don't have to contend with that crap. And some of the rentals got unbelievable fuel economy. I averaged 42 miles per gallon (can't quickly remember liters/100 km) over a 3,000 km rental with 4 of us in an Opel Astra wagon. Mixture of stop and go, mountain, and high speed Autostrada with a lot over 150 km/hr.

    The bad thing with European diesels is the soot problem. Every landmark undergoes almost continuous cleaning. My car was super clean for its time so I got a sticker allowing me to drive in Paris on the really bad pollution days. Most diesels at that time had to sit on those days.
    JD7720; KubotaM135GX; NH TS115A; JD6230; KubotaL5740

  10. #20
    New Member
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    Mahindra 4010

    Default Re: Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

    Creamer,

    I just wanted to clarify that what I was talking about was the cost (of production) difference, and the difference has been increasing as diesel engines require higher fuel pressures, more refined combustion control, and most costly - tons more emissions equipment. Diesels used to have nothing for emissions while for decades gasoline engines were fitted with catalysts and EGR controls. I had an '88 GMC that even had an air pump to simply dilute the exhaust gases, yet my '02 Chevy diesel came factory without even a catalytic converter, and Cummins did not even use EGR on the Chrysler 'B' until 2007.

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