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  1. #1
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    Default New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    I was at the kubota dealer yesterday and he was showing me the newer models that have the new antipollution devices installed. He said that this will add a additional 15% to the cost of the the tractor. I was concerned about losing horsepower. Does anybody have any information about these devices and the effects on performance and cost?

  2. #2
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    Default

    These are the same emissions requirements that have been in place on pickups and tractor-trailers for a few years. Unless I'm mistaken the new tractors have SCRs and DEF injection. The SCR (selective catalyst reduction) is basically a catalytic converter that you inject a combustible material into to cook off NOx emissions. The DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) is urea that is injected to convert NOx into supposedly less harmful things such as water vapor. This technology has been around for decades and is just now being sized down for automotive use.

    Does it work? Yes. Is it worth it? No. I'll be buying used from here on out. Unless the manufacturer has compensated for the emissions system, you will notice increased fuel consumption. You also have to work the tractor hard otherwise the SCR pluggs up and has to get replaced, and they are very expensive.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Rustyiron's Avatar
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    I wonder if they are as "computerized" as the trucks are and if not could you shutcan these systems?
    ]We need more people to WORK for a living and less people to VOTE for a living!
    (proven on 11/6/12)

  4. #4
    Elite Member JasG's Avatar
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Confederate View Post
    These are the same emissions requirements that have been in place on pickups and tractor-trailers for a few years. Unless I'm mistaken the new tractors have SCRs and DEF injection. The SCR (selective catalyst reduction) is basically a catalytic converter that you inject a combustible material into to cook off NOx emissions. The DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) is urea that is injected to convert NOx into supposedly less harmful things such as water vapor. This technology has been around for decades and is just now being sized down for automotive use.

    Does it work? Yes. Is it worth it? No. I'll be buying used from here on out. Unless the manufacturer has compensated for the emissions system, you will notice increased fuel consumption. You also have to work the tractor hard otherwise the SCR pluggs up and has to get replaced, and they are very expensive.
    I think your mixing up a few things.

    kubota is using EGR only, not SCR with DEF fluid. No tractors under about 90 HP are using SCR at this time that I know of. The soot filter can plug, and that is common to both the SCR and the EGR system, not the converter. I have not heard of plugging on a SCR system though yet. Both system use high pressure common rail injection which helps some with fuel usage.

    EGR they use exhaust that has been cooled and feed back into the intake to lower temps in the engine so it produces less NOx, just like on a car. It does increase fuel usage and increases soot which uses fuel to be burned up in the filter. It actually has it's own diesel injector that during regeneration puts fuel in the exhaust to burn it off. System does have issues with plugging, engine wear, and higher fuel usage.

    SCR they use a catalytic converter in addition to a soot filter. With this system they can run much higher cylinder temps which gives better fuel usage and lower soot. This also gives them better fuel usage than EGR and in many cases than older engines because of the HPCR injection. This system generates much less soot than the EGR, so fuel usage in the soot filter is very low. The DEF fluid is not combustible, it is mostly water. It is a chemical reaction that breaks they NOx down into CO2 and water vapor.
    “Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."


    Ronald Reagan

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    So most likely if I buy a Mx5100 a year from now that system would not require the use of a Scr fluid? I understand that fluid is Urea to breakdown the Nox. I was also concerned about common rail injection systems and their complexity but it seem car use that in Europe already. So I think the technology would be more reliable buy now. I travel often to Africa and Europe and that all you see is diesel cars and trucks

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    High pressure common rail is used in all new trucks and most diesel cars, it's about the only way they can meet present emission standards. All VW diesel cars have had it for the last 3 years. Biggest issue I see is ensuring that the diesel fuel is clean before hitting the high pressure pump, and using an additive to ensure that pump is properly lubricated. Most on-road diesel fuel in the US barely meets the lubrication spec required for these high pressure pumps. I have no idea if the off-road diesel fuel even has a lubrication spec to meet. If a high pressure pump gets trashed in a VW it costs over $6500 to replace the pump, injectors and associated parts that have been contaminated. Clean, properly lubricated, fuel is very important for these high pressure systems. My VW Passat TDI uses DEF, the Jetta/Golf TDI's do not. Even though the Passat is a bigger car, I get better fuel economy due to the way they can tune the engine using DEF.
    Jim

    - '01 Husqvarna W4814- 48" walk behind lawn mower.
    - '04 John Deere Z-Trac 727A- 54" ZTR
    - '13 Kioti DK40 HST - KL401 loader, DK40 72" QA bucket, LK3054 60" QA bucket, toothbar for 60" bucket, dual rear remotes, 7ft 6 way rear blade, 78" ETA Box Blade, Woods BH-90x backhoe, loaded rear tires, Kioti Canopy.

  7. #7
    Super Star Member murphy1244's Avatar
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    Off road is the same as you buy from the pump with red dye in it.
    Murph

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by murphy1244 View Post
    Off road is the same as you buy from the pump with red dye in it.
    The base diesel fuel is the same, but does it have the same lubrication additives added to it? Are you willing to bet your $6500+ fuel system? Base USLD fuel does not meet the US lubrication spec, lubrication must be added to meet the spec. The other issue is that the US lubrication spec is not as stringent as the Bosch spec so adding lubrication is a good idea, at least for VW's.. even with pump diesel fuel. All these high pressure pumps are running very tight clearances that are necessary to generate the 28,000-30,000 psi that they run at making cleanliness and lubrication very important.
    Jim

    - '01 Husqvarna W4814- 48" walk behind lawn mower.
    - '04 John Deere Z-Trac 727A- 54" ZTR
    - '13 Kioti DK40 HST - KL401 loader, DK40 72" QA bucket, LK3054 60" QA bucket, toothbar for 60" bucket, dual rear remotes, 7ft 6 way rear blade, 78" ETA Box Blade, Woods BH-90x backhoe, loaded rear tires, Kioti Canopy.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    just had to change a converter on one of my 2010 hino trucks(4k)some of these trucks have had 3 sets of injectors before they even hit 200k. it seems that when they changed the diesel back in 2009 (sulfer) that the new mix of fuel plugs injectors causing the converter to run very hot Hino has extended there injector wrnty from 250k to 300k for this reason it seems that the new emis sytems starting in 2011 where you have another small tank that you have to fill every 6 to 7k miles isn't having that problem but has a ton of new problems you just cant win as far as trucks go I wont be buying anything newer than a 07 for as long as I can get away with it and as far as tractors go if it has emis I would stay away also im sure in time they will get these things figured out but until then I cant afford to be there test dummy

  10. #10
    Elite Member JasG's Avatar
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    Default Re: New environmental requirements for Diesel Engines

    Quote Originally Posted by IXLR8 View Post
    The base diesel fuel is the same, but does it have the same lubrication additives added to it? Are you willing to bet your $6500+ fuel system? Base USLD fuel does not meet the US lubrication spec, lubrication must be added to meet the spec. The other issue is that the US lubrication spec is not as stringent as the Bosch spec so adding lubrication is a good idea, at least for VW's.. even with pump diesel fuel. All these high pressure pumps are running very tight clearances that are necessary to generate the 28,000-30,000 psi that they run at making cleanliness and lubrication very important.
    Off road engines including the newest kubota's are using high pressure common rail so the fuel has to meet the spec you would see all kinds of issues. Deere, Cat among others have been using it for several years.

    The biggest problems a local injection shop see's is water damage. They said they have been told that the ULSD has water that is in it it's very hard to get out and doesn't seem to fall out of the fuel no matter how long it sits. I know a few people with new Ford and Chevy trucks that have had issues with water in the fuel.

    I personally have been running stanadyne performance formula for 15 years in all my machinery. No worry about winter blend or lubrication and the fuel seem to store a lot longer without issue.
    “Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."


    Ronald Reagan

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