Robotic Following Cart to Replace Light Duty Tractor Tasks?

[MossRoad]

Hello, I am working to build a robot for farmers to replace some of those tasks where you'd otherwise jump in and out of a tractor, or have to tow around a wagon. Here is a video of an early prototype: Augean Robotics (AGR) Following Cart Prototype - YouTube.

What do people think about this? The product is a robotic cart that follows the user, and can also return to a specified point on command. On my orchard, it would be very useful for harvesting apples, and also for spreading mulch (as shown in the video) and in other tasks where I'd otherwise be jumping into/out of a skid steer to spread small bits of material or collect objects.

The cart will be built out of aluminum so will not corrode, and should weigh about 100 pounds and be able to carry 250 pounds or so (at least several bushels of apples).

Any thoughts or feedback on the idea? What might you pay for something like this? Any applications people can think of?

OK. You asked, so don't everyone else flame me.

$4,500.00 is WAY too expensive for a cart to follow me around that I have to load and unload by hand. In the time it took you to use a shovel to fill that cart with wood chips for apple trees, I would have scooped a heaping bucket of chips(about 4 times more material than in that bin), and drove out to the trees at 8mph, shook the bucket a bit at each tree to drop a pile of chips, and been on my way back before you were leaving the pile. So right there, its going to take 4 more times the trips with that than my tractor bucket. In all honesty, I could probably do a hundred trees in the time it would take you to make one trip. I'm not bragging about the speed of my tractor, abilities, skill, blah, blah. I'm being completely honest. I don't see a use for it for the price if I have to load it and unload it by hand and only move at a walking speed. Of course, that's just the example I saw it used for. Maybe there's other applications? Maybe someone with physical limitations could use something like that. But my guess is for that price, they could buy a garden tractor for less than $2000 and a Rubbermaid cart for $500 to tow behind it and mow their lawn with it as well. If they're physically unable to push something like a bike wheel garden cart, they're probably also physically unable to shovel material into and out of it, and walk to and from the destination. If they're physically able to shovel and walk, then they're physically able to drive a small garden tractor with a cart behind it.

I personally wouldn't pay for such a product for personal use. I have my tractor with a bucket or forks for carrying really heavy stuff. That prototype is more than half the cost of my tractor new in 2001. I also bought new two sizes of buckets, a 60" finish mower, a 48" brush cutter, a 60" power angle snow plow, teeth for my small bucket, loading ramps for my pickup truck, and truck delivery from Virginia to Indiana for about the price of just your cart. I have a dump trailer for towing behind the tractor that was about $400. I use that for harvesting quantities too large to carry in a plastic sack or hauling weeds from the flower beds to the compost pile. I have a bike-wheel garden cart that I can haul 50 pieces of firewood across our property with very, very little effort. You can pick those up for about $125. I just couldn't see a use for it for my needs.

Commercial use? Maybe a market there, but a hard sell at that price.

I hope you find a market for it. I like to see people succeed. Not trying to be a downer. Its just too expensive.

 

[candersen10]

OK. You asked, so don't everyone else flame me.

$4,500.00 is WAY too expensive for a cart to follow me around that I have to load and unload by hand. In the time it took you to use a shovel to fill that cart with wood chips for apple trees, I would have scooped a heaping bucket of chips(about 4 times more material than in that bin), and drove out to the trees at 8mph, shook the bucket a bit at each tree to drop a pile of chips, and been on my way back before you were leaving the pile. So right there, its going to take 4 more times the trips with that than my tractor bucket. In all honesty, I could probably do a hundred trees in the time it would take you to make one trip. I'm not bragging about the speed of my tractor, abilities, skill, blah, blah. I'm being completely honest. I don't see a use for it for the price if I have to load it and unload it by hand and only move at a walking speed. Of course, that's just the example I saw it used for. Maybe there's other applications? Maybe someone with physical limitations could use something like that. But my guess is for that price, they could buy a garden tractor for less than $2000 and a Rubbermaid cart for $500 to tow behind it and mow their lawn with it as well. If they're physically unable to push something like a bike wheel garden cart, they're probably also physically unable to shovel material into and out of it, and walk to and from the destination. If they're physically able to shovel and walk, then they're physically able to drive a small garden tractor with a cart behind it.

I personally wouldn't pay for such a product for personal use. I have my tractor with a bucket or forks for carrying really heavy stuff. That prototype is more than half the cost of my tractor new in 2001. I also bought new two sizes of buckets, a 60" finish mower, a 48" brush cutter, a 60" power angle snow plow, teeth for my small bucket, loading ramps for my pickup truck, and truck delivery from Virginia to Indiana for about the price of just your cart. I have a dump trailer for towing behind the tractor that was about $400. I use that for harvesting quantities too large to carry in a plastic sack or hauling weeds from the flower beds to the compost pile. I have a bike-wheel garden cart that I can haul 50 pieces of firewood across our property with very, very little effort. You can pick those up for about $125. I just couldn't see a use for it for my needs.

Commercial use? Maybe a market there, but a hard sell at that price.

I hope you find a market for it. I like to see people succeed. Not trying to be a downer. Its just too expensive.

MossRoad, thank you for your detailed reply. There is no way we can compete with the overall capacity and capability of a $11K base price Powertrac PT425. Our price point is cost up (what it will cost us to build one with 250 lb payload, 5 miles range on a charge, follow/record path to run a route back to a set home point), not value down (the value a customer might get with one) hence the $4-5K proposed asking price.

Perhaps the use case shown in the video of spreading mulch is not a good one. For something where you have to prune each tree by hand and collect all of the pruned pieces to be transported off site, or pick apples from each tree by hand and then progress to the next tree, or harvest tomatoes from a plant then move onto the next one; might those types of things be something where a tractor would just be cumbersome while a cart that followed you and could return to a collection point to be emptied by another person or dump itself might be useful?

 

[aczlan]

MossRoad, thank you for your detailed reply. There is no way we can compete with the overall capacity and capability of a $11K base price Powertrac PT425. Our price point is cost up (what it will cost us to build one with 250 lb payload, 5 miles range on a charge, follow/record path to run a route back to a set home point), not value down (the value a customer might get with one) hence the $4-5K proposed asking price.

Perhaps the use case shown in the video of spreading mulch is not a good one. For something where you have to prune each tree by hand and collect all of the pruned pieces to be transported off site, or pick apples from each tree by hand and then progress to the next tree, or harvest tomatoes from a plant then move onto the next one; might those types of things be something where a tractor would just be cumbersome while a cart that followed you and could return to a collection point to be emptied by another person or dump itself might be useful?

For apples, you would need at least a 1500# capacity (so it can hold a full apple bin) and usually, they use a bin trailer like this one to pickup bins (the bins are pre-staged empty and trailered after they fill):

Source: Carter Orchards
The reason is that they are hand picked, but then they are moved in bins until they are ready to be processed. You CANNOT dump them unless you are making juice, applesauce, etc.
I assume that the one you are showing is following a reflective dot or prisim on the shovel. Do you have planned some kind of "bumper" to make sure it stops when it runs into someone in "automatic" mode?

Aaron Z

 

[candersen10]

For apples, you would need at least a 1500# capacity (so it can hold a full apple bin) and usually, they use a bin trailer like this one to pickup bins (the bins are pre-staged empty and trailered after they fill):
View attachment 498040
Source: Carter Orchards
The reason is that they are hand picked, but then they are moved in bins until they are ready to be processed. You CANNOT dump them unless you are making juice, applesauce, etc.
I assume that the one you are showing is following a reflective dot or prisim on the shovel. Do you have planned some kind of "bumper" to make sure it stops when it runs into someone in "automatic" mode?

Aaron Z

Aaron Z, we were thinking that a 250 pound payload cart that could travel quite a distance could shuttle produce to these bins, replacing the transit time that laborers might otherwise take. The cart could follow a laborer out, and then once full the laborer could push a button and the cart would run back to a set point to be emptied, or to dump (if possible), before returning to its laborer. Are we imagining a problem that doesn't exist?

Regarding the functionality, we would of course have bumper bars, safety stop switches, etc. Once you get to larger robotic machines (i.e. 1500 pounds) you need much more sophisticated obstacle avoidance however which would render a unit far more expensive than a tractor and not commercially viable.

 

[Dadnatron]

Unfortunately, your video shows a theory which has not been fleshed out adequately to begin asking folks what they think. If it was moving smoothly, following the PERSON at a regular pace, and was able to return to dump and return to where the person was at that point, around obstacles, THEN, you might have something to begin asking people about.

The issue is, that you have shown me a machine, for which you want to ask $4K, that acts like a toddler.

Go back to the shop. Develop a radio following device with pathing capability, which comes and goes on command, THEN come ask us what we think.

I applaud your attempt, but what you have at this point is far too limited for us to envision a use. Perhaps it could be used in the building trade, specifically bricklaying or something. But pathing, speed, and carrying capacity will have to be far bigger before anyone will likely be interested.

You might think about lawn care companies who spread mulch and sod. If you could remove the cost of a hard physical labor employee and it work quickly, you might have something worth what you are asking. But again, it will have to path and in that instance, each and every yard would be different, so your pathing and movement around obstacles would have to be fantastic.

I cannot think of a single use for this machine on my farm. But I hope you are able to develop something useful to someone.

 

[aczlan]

Aaron Z, we were thinking that a 250 pound payload cart that could travel quite a distance could shuttle produce to these bins, replacing the transit time that laborers might otherwise take. The cart could follow a laborer out, and then once full the laborer could push a button and the cart would run back to a set point to be emptied, or to dump (if possible), before returning to its laborer. Are we imagining a problem that doesn't exist?

Around here, they stage the bins going down the rows and they run a bin trailer down the row to pick up the bins. A bin can generally be filled within 2-6 trees and they will work trees on both sides of the aisle, so they dont have to walk more than 25 feet to the bin.
Here is a video of a bin trailer in use. About halfway through you can see how they are spacing the bins:

A picture (source: A LIFE OF APPLES: October 2 )

Now, that might work well with grapes, strawberries, raspberries or blueberries which use smaller bins (perhaps with a remote that lets workers put a "stop" in for it when they have full bins), but apples are hardy enough to be put in 20 bushel bins that are handled by tractors and forklifts and IMO your machine inst anywhere near heavy enough to handle them.

You might also want to look at a tracked option, 350# on 2'x4" tracks would give you ~1.8PSI of ground pressure. That would be less ground pressure than a 250# person wearing size 13 boots.
If you wanted to look at going bigger, you might look at a tracked concrete buggy (but with a flat deck, or with a "rollback" type deck so you can load/unload a pallet or a bin) for your "platform", then adding your sensors/controls to it. Something like SC75 Rubber Track Concrete Buggy | Canycom USA, Inc. perhaps.


Aaron Z

 

[candersen10]

Unfortunately, your video shows a theory which has not been fleshed out adequately to begin asking folks what they think. If it was moving smoothly, following the PERSON at a regular pace, and was able to return to dump and return to where the person was at that point, around obstacles, THEN, you might have something to begin asking people about.

The issue is, that you have shown me a machine, for which you want to ask $4K, that acts like a toddler.

Go back to the shop. Develop a radio following device with pathing capability, which comes and goes on command, THEN come ask us what we think.

I applaud your attempt, but what you have at this point is far too limited for us to envision a use. Perhaps it could be used in the building trade, specifically bricklaying or something. But pathing, speed, and carrying capacity will have to be far bigger before anyone will likely be interested.

You might think about lawn care companies who spread mulch and sod. If you could remove the cost of a hard physical labor employee and it work quickly, you might have something worth what you are asking. But again, it will have to path and in that instance, each and every yard would be different, so your pathing and movement around obstacles would have to be fantastic.

I cannot think of a single use for this machine on my farm. But I hope you are able to develop something useful to someone.

Dadnatron, thank you for the feedback. We are applying lean startup methodology - put out a very rough prototype that barely functions and get feedback before investing several thousand engineering hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop something not knowing that anyone would ever buy it.

We think, a machine with a 250 pound payload that could follow a picker, and record a path which it could then retrace to a set home point to be unloaded/dump, and which sold for around $4-5K might have a market. Through retracing a path, the machine could eliminate a lot of transit time in some spaces and thus reduce labor costs. Harvesting/pruning Apples/grapes, harvesting specialty vegetables, and other non-mechanized pick/prune/management spaces seem like potential application areas. Would love feedback on this - are we dreaming? From your answer, it sounds like yes? Could you think of anything you do on your farm where you have to do a lot of manual labor picking or putting stuff down where a cart that followed you and could return to a specified point could be useful?

 

[candersen10]

Around here, they stage the bins going down the rows and they run a bin trailer down the row to pick up the bins. A bin can generally be filled within 2-6 trees and they will work trees on both sides of the aisle, so they dont have to walk more than 25 feet to the bin.
Here is a video of a bin trailer in use. About halfway through you can see how they are spacing the bins:

A picture (source: A LIFE OF APPLES: October 21 )
View attachment 498048
Now, that might work well with grapes, strawberries, raspberries or blueberries which use smaller bins (perhaps with a remote that lets workers put a "stop" in for it when they have full bins), but apples are hardy enough to be put in 20 bushel bins that are handled by tractors and forklifts and IMO your machine inst anywhere near heavy enough to handle them.

You might also want to look at a tracked option, 350# on 2'x4" tracks would give you ~1.8PSI of ground pressure. That would be less ground pressure than a 250# person wearing size 13 boots.
If you wanted to look at going bigger, you might look at a tracked concrete buggy (but with a flat deck, or with a "rollback" type deck so you can load/unload a pallet or a bin) for your "platform", then adding your sensors/controls to it. Something like SC75 Rubber Track Concrete Buggy | Canycom USA, Inc. perhaps.


Aaron Z

Aaron,

Thank you for the information - really helpful! Tracks are very do-able, albeit at a higher cost.

Have you ever seen how they are pruning the trees? In your area, do they typically remove the pruned pieces to avoid spreading disease etc.?

Do all of the operations that you know of have such large scale bin trailers for harvesting where workers pick directly into them? Conceivably, our robotic carts could make a 1-2 mile trip from picker to collection point and back which might replace some of that use. Best not to try to attack a mechanized solution however so if that usage is everywhere perhaps we are off base.

 

[Shaneard]

MossRoad, thank you for your detailed reply. There is no way we can compete with the overall capacity and capability of a $11K base price Powertrac PT425. Our price point is cost up (what it will cost us to build one with 250 lb payload, 5 miles range on a charge, follow/record path to run a route back to a set home point), not value down (the value a customer might get with one) hence the $4-5K proposed asking price.

Not trying to be negative Nancy here but if your machine will only go 5 miles on a single charge that's not going to be comparable to what a human can do in 8+ hours a day if they have to push some sort of cart. A worker in the orchard business or whatever business your gearing your cart towards isn't the average lazy American that a lot of people in America are. The people working in the orchards etc. are hard workers and if their lazy they will soon be replaced with another hard worker. If your cart can only go 5 miles on a charge and have a capacity of 250 lbs. then your looking at multiple carts to get the desired payload and keep the flow going/coming. If you only have one cart then the person doing the picking is standing there doing nothing while waiting on the cart to return to a set position and get back thus the need for multiple carts. How will they know how to get out of each others way?

 

[candersen10]

Not trying to be negative Nancy here but if your machine will only go 5 miles on a single charge that's not going to be comparable to what a human can do in 8+ hours a day if they have to push some sort of cart. A worker in the orchard business or whatever business your gearing your cart towards isn't the average lazy American that a lot of people in America are. The people working in the orchards etc. are hard workers and if their lazy they will soon be replaced with another hard worker. If your cart can only go 5 miles on a charge and have a capacity of 250 lbs. then your looking at multiple carts to get the desired payload and keep the flow going/coming. If you only have one cart then the person doing the picking is standing there doing nothing while waiting on the cart to return to a set position and get back thus the need for multiple carts. How will they know how to get out of each others way?

Typically, from what I have seen, guys in vegetable and hand picked fruit operations (perhaps not apples, but definitely Grapes) are picking into 40-60 pound plastic lugs that are stack-able. Logically, the robot could carry 4-5 of these, and the worker could continue to pick into one while the robot returned to a collection point to be emptied and then came back with emptied lugs. This is the way my farm crew does it (although we don't have robots yet obviously). I would think there would be a large labor saving in this. My farm may be very unique however (we are very small - only 187 acres).