Help sizing and choosing a tractor, JD vs. Kubota

[Homeboy]

After a confusing month of visiting dealers I found this site - it rocks - I've learned more tonight then all the rest of my time speant ... thanks all ...!

... but I do have some questions for the group - first, some background ...

I have 9 acres (which may increase), 5 are wooded, somewhat steep hills (generally 20% grade), and a stream. I am replacing a wonderful but woefully underpowered 1960's International Cub, which can pull a cart but not much else ) I will keep it, however, as I love the machine, and once I have a replacement tractor I can finally get my friends to teach me how to rebuild the flathead engine).

I do NOT intend to mow right now (I don't want a weekly chore and can hire it out pretty cheap) but do want to leave that option open for the future. This might become an issue with a larger (heavier) machine for finish mowing, especially as much of the lawn is on hills.

My primary applications are FEL, hauling, snow plowing, and probably running a chipper. I am seriously considering a backhoe (see below).

Price is NOT a primary decision point, as I expect to have it for 30+ years and the differences between the units I am considering are small enough that it does not matter to me.

What I do know is:

- I want to buy the smallest tractor I can where I don't regret not having bought bigger.

- I will choose between JD and Kubota, both for reputation and the dealer networks in my area.

- I will definitely get 4wd, HST, and the smallest loader bucket for whichever tractor I choose (since time is not money for me, and I want to stay as small as is reasonable)

- I will buy any options that improve usability, but don't care about a cab, radio, etc. This could become an issue for JD 4x10 versus 4x20 tractors, for example.

- I will get the Industrial tires, as the turf won't be great for stream or loader work, and the AG tires do too much damage (that is what I have on my cub)

I am primarily considering Kubota B7800, Kubota L30, and JD 4xxx (I am confused trying to sort JD models out, but the 4120/4320 appear to be my current choices). There is also a JD 3x20 series the dealer did not have in stock, which seemed comparable to the Kubota B series ...

I have used industrial backhoes (Case 580, ...) before on a friends farm, but never tractors like these, so I have no sense of their utility

So, here are the big problems in making a decision ... it really comes down to (a) my not having the hands on experience to know when enough is enough (b) and which features will make operations easier (c) and whether Kubota or Deere is nicer to operate, though I expect I'll get differing opinions on that question...

1. I have a major one time creek project that needs doing and requires a backhoe, so I could buy or rent one. Renting is cheaper (~$700/wk for a industrial sized one in my area), but over the years I'll get a lot of use from a backhoe, as there is always creek repair work, some trenching projects, stump removal, etc. I am concerned that the backhoe on the Kubota B series might not be that useful, however, which I have to weigh against the larger size of the L series and JD 4xxx.

2. I'd love advice on others experience of how useful they found having a backhoe once their major projects were done.

3. The JD i-Match quick mount seems nice, and I certainly favor convenience - but not at the cost of reliability/durability - opinions?

4. The JD's 20 series seem to have considerably more power available then the Kubotas, but I'm not sure when enough is enough - also, they emphasize HP, but grearing/torque can make a big difference in useful work.

5. I can't decide if the sophisticated controls of the JD 20 series is worth it, nor can I decide if any of the options (LoadMatch, E-Hydro,...) are worth it ... the dealer suggested that the less knowledgable/skilled in FEL I was the more useful they were ...

6. If I do get a backhoe and am not "production oriented" like a contractor, does it really matter whether I have a 6', 7', or 8' reach if I'm not digging deep holes. I realize I'll have to reposition more often, but that doesn't seem like as big a deal as the dealer makes it out to be.

7. If I do get a backhoe, another project is a 400 ft. long 2' trench that I need to dig to lay a new electric line - I don't know if I should use the backhoe this way or rent trenching equipment (I've never done this type of project before)

8. For snowplowing, I get mixed advice about whether to use a front blade, rear blade (much cheaper), or just use the FEL. Since our area only gets a few storms over 8" in a typical year, the FEL seems like it would be okay ...

... so, in short, anyone want to venture a short-list recomendation for the work I described, as to what you would buy with budget not being an issue?

three last questions, unrelated to the tractor itself, but I hope your experience can steer me right...

- I've been told that chippers for 3-point hitch rear PTO are not autofeed and are not worth it unless you are doing very light work - I normally collect wood all year and then rent a industrial (10") autofeed chipper (which took me 7 hours with 4 men this year), but it would be a lot handier to have the chipper on the tractor and bring it to the wood all year long instead of hauling the wood to a pile - can anyone recomend a suitable chipper with autofeed, or one they think is worth it - I want to handle 4" wood for sure, and 6" would be nice. I'd also like to be able to shred, but am unclear as to whether there is a disadvantage to choosing a dual use model.

- when I do the creek project I'd like to excavate and then separate rocks and dirt, and sort rocks by rough size - this is primarily because I'm going to use the larger material to rebuild the banks - can anyone tell me an efficient way to do this sorting without resorting to shovels? I thought of welding rebar to make a mesh to pour through, but I'm hoping there is an easier way.

- I've seen rocks boxed in wire that are used along the highways, which seems a good way to build up some of my river embankment as it won't easily wash away - I can't find a source for these however - anyone know one?

I know there is a lot here - all advice is deeply appreciated

 

[Egon]

Oh my goodness - the questions.

A few comments:

You can get screens and mount them on a stand for segregating the rock. Personally I like your rebar idea the best.

Backhoes digging depth is more dependant on the length of the dipper stick than the total reach. In many cases a large rental may just be much easier for the big jobs. Also take into consideration the depth of trenches you may walk into???

A trencher would work much faster and neater than a hoe for laying in the electrical. If you have a hoe use the hoe.

Look at the stability of the tractors in question as you did mention slope.

Bucket should do fine for snow removal.

Inexperience turns to experience with seat time. Everyones learning curve is different.

Not much help but heck - best advice I can give is " Get the one you like best " I know there is one on the list I'd surley like to own.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jfdlaw]

Welcome to the site. There is a lot of good information here. Take some time to search the past threads. (When using the search function set the date back a year or two to maximize your results)

You threw a lot out there. I have to dig through some sites to come up with sources for the chipper. While I'm doing that let us know where you live. It will make a difference on the snow question.

It would be a good idea to fill out your profile.

John

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Given your choices of brands, 3 Kubotas come to mind. The B7800, the B3030 and the L3130. I have a B2910, which is the deluxe version of the B7800 and the predecessor to the new B3030. The 7800/3030 is the most compact of the roughly 30hp class of tractor, very light and great for mowing, so-so for heavy duty work. The L3130 is a bit heavy for mowing but folks do it, I'd rate it so-so. But it is a nice heavy tractor for doing heavy duty work, particularly with the 723 loader. The L3130 also is available with the 512 loader but that loader does not impress me and the bucket is actually fairly light duty.

Of the Kubotas, my choice would be the 32hp L3130 for 9 acres given your tasks.

On the John Deere side, yesterday I just had the opportunity to play with (boy I wished I could have WORKED with it in some mud!) the 32hp JD 4310 and found it to be the MOST impressive tractor in the roughly 30hp range of any brand of tractor on the market today. I was extremely impressed with the operators platform, the layout of the controls, the ergonomics of everything and the design. It was simply the best thought out tractor I have had the pleasure of setting my backside into in that size/power range. As a pretty deluxe machine, it will cost a couple pennies more than some other brands, but if I was shopping today, I'd pony up the pennies for a JD 4310. I cannot speak to the 4x2x series tractors, never seen one of those. JD also makes the 790, it is an economy 30hp machine, it simply does not compare to the 4310 in terms of ergonomics, size, etc.

As for renting a backhoe, for your major creek work. I would strongly recommend you take a look at renting a TRACK HOE, also called a mini-excavator. They are far more capable than tractor mounted backhoes. I am not saying this would replace the potential purchase of a tractor mounted backhoe, I'm just suggested for your major project where you were talking about renting equipment, try the track hoe. It will get more work done in far less time. Here is a link to one I rented in case you don't know what a track hoe is : Thomas Mini Excavator

 

[Mark4510]

Homeboy,
You sure threw out a lot of things to reply to..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If I had a big job I would rent a backhoe. Faster, easier, safer...

We dont really get snow so I cant help you there. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

When I was looking I was told to not buy too small of a tractor. I was looking at the JD 4310 but am glad I bought up one size. For what I need it is just right.

Here is an answer I just posted for someone else on what I think is important.....something to consider.

"Both are tractors and should work well for you. I know when I got started looking at a new tractor I went through and looked through all the catalogues to compare. Based on what the paper work there are a lot of good tractors out there.

What finally pushed me toward JD was the quality of the dealer, how I fit into the tractor and what I thought would hold its value over time.

I am not a very mechanically inclined person so it was important to me to have a dealer that I could take my tractor to who would fix it correctly the first time. I also wanted a dealer that has been around a while, has access to parts now and in the future and where, if there is a problem, I can escalate my complaint up the food chain. So far I have had no problems.....

I sat in a large number or tractors and drove many of them. In the end it came down to JD, Kubota and Kioti. What had me liking the JD was the fact that it just fit me. All the controls were in the right place, easy to reach and made sense to me. I recently drove a friends Mahindra and, while it seems like a nice tractor, I was actually sore the next day from using it. Dont underestimate how important the layout is.

The other thing that helped push me to JD was my perception of what tractor would hold its value over time. I did a quick check in the local used equipment mags and found that JD, Kubota and New Holland all held thier values well.

I think there are a lot of good tractors out there so the paper comparison was only my first step. I am very pleased with my tractor, the support and ease of use."

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="blue">
I sat in a large number or tractors and drove many of them. In the end it came down to JD, Kubota and Kioti. What had me liking the JD was the fact that it just fit me. All the controls were in the right place, easy to reach and made sense to me. I recently drove a friends Mahindra and, while it seems like a nice tractor, I was actually sore the next day from using it. Dont underestimate how important the layout is.
</font>

Mark4510, this is a very valid point.

I'm a big fan of the ergonimics of the New Holland boomer tractors, up until yesterday I would have strongly argued that across their entire line of machines they are the class leaders in ergonomic function. I love my TC, but I'm now going to be looking a lot closer at the JD tractors because of their ergonomics, the 4310 really impressed me. If I was going up to 35hp, then I'd still opt for a TC35, but I'd easily choose a JD4310 over the NH TC33 and over the Kubota L3130. And both the Kubota and the NH are simply awesome, well made, well thought out tractors.

How your rear end fits in the seat can make a world of difference at the end of the day (and the next day too).

 

[Homeboy]

Thanks, some really helpful advice all ... I know I ask a lot of questions!

I am generally familiar with track hoes - I was figuring on getting a back hoe so as to do a few other projects at the same time that I'd use the big FEL for, but now that I think about it I think you are definitely right Bob_Skurka.

I'm not really sure how to assess stability on slopes as Egon suggests, except by looking at width versus height and assuming they have similar center of gravities - I can ask the dealer but I'm not sure how far to trust their knowledge.

Silly as it sounds, I didn't pay much attention to the seat and control ergonomics - I liked the Kubota single pedal better then the JD dual pedals, but several people told me I won't when I really use it. They all seemed comfortable to me, but that isn't always apparant when sitting for 5 minutes.

NH is not well represented in my area, and I like the fact with either JD or Kubota I have a lot of dealers to turn to if one dealer leaves me unsatisfied

I think I'm going to short list the JD 4xxx and look for reasons not to buy it, including the dealers helpfulness and pricing.

I still haven't decided the backhoe issue, especially if I rent for the bigger projects. I think I might pass on it though ... nobody said they found it an indispensible help ... I can always buy it later

I filled out my profile some, but I'm outside Philadelphia.

Thanks all
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[aloha]

Although the economics tend to favor renting a backhoe when needed, the convenience of having one immediately available persuaded me to get one for my B7800. Mine is a Woods 7500 on a subframe mount. It goes on or off in under 5 minutes. Little digging jobs I could do with a shovel in 20 minutes are done with the backhoe in 20 minutes including time to mount and dismount it, but I avoid the sore back and have fun.

For the amount of ongoing BH work you describe, you may be an exception to the general rule favoring renting as needed.

On any of these tractors, I would always recommend a subframe mount rather than 3PH for extra strenght and to spread the forces generated by the BH over a larger area of the tractor.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I liked the Kubota single pedal better then the JD dual pedals, but several people told me I won't when I really use it. )</font>
The pedal on the B7800 is very easy and natural. I have seen several owners comment that they like it, and have seen no complaints.

 

[Jrrcorp]

Bob, i gota agree with you. I'm a former Kubota L275 w/FEL owner and traded it in last fall for a new JD 4410 with a 430 loader and heavey duty bucket. I looked at the L3030 first, but after using the JD4410 it was an easy decision. JD did it's homework. The features and lay out of gauges and controls is awesome. Also our newbe Homeboy, If you do get a JD, the attachments such as the loader and the backhoe go on and off slick as .......they don't go on and off as easy on the Kubota. Don't get me wrong, I loved my Kubota but JD has out designed them in my opinion. I've had Kubota neighbors tell me I'm nuts (probably so) and other neighbors with JD's say I'll never regret my purchase. As to what you want to use it for, Bob's right, for the creek rent a mini excavator. I'm a building contractor and the excavator is so much more agile for digging and more manuverable, it's no contest. For snow, well I'm in the snow belt 35 miles SE of Buffalo NY and we got over 100" again this year. I use the FEL and a ' rear mounted 2 stage blower. If you check out other postings, guys in your situation seem the think the rear blade is easiest to use. And don't be afraid of the size (he said to the virgin), a 4310, drop off the FEL and you got a great grass cutting machine (unless you have a lot of closely spaced trees). Keep reading the posts here. These guys are great. I learned more here in 6 months than I have in the last 25 years of tractor ownership. Good-luck!

 

[Jrrcorp]

Now that you brought is up, the single pedal is what made me really wonder what the designers of the L3030 were thinking of. If you use the tractor is as many tight situations as I have, you'll know that you often step on one brake pedal with the steering wheel turned, excellerate, and spin the tractor on a dime. Well, with that one pedal arrangement right behind and below the two brake pedals, you can't do what I just described. Keep reading, there's alot for you to learn before plunking down your hard earned cash. Next time you test drive a machine, try what I just explained.