Steep property--need advice.

   / Steep property--need advice. #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Roy,

So you have NEVER missed a gear and went free wheeling and had to hit the breaks to stop?? Wow you are good. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )</font>

Not good...just using some common sense.

Thanks for the compliment though!
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #12  
<font color="blue"> Save the money, buy the manual. Every bit as safe as HST, or safer. </font>

Roy, that is just as much a blanket statement as the HST comment was! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Frankly, in my mind, for the new operator, common sense tells me that the HST is the safer choice. Simply because when the foot is lifted off the directional pedal, the tractor stops. Requires no thought action other than lifting one's foot.

The reason I think the HST is a better choice on hills is that it enables me to smoothly change speed, stop, or reverse without ever breaking the mechanical (or at least power) connection between the engine and the wheels.

I don't have to depend on brakes on a slope when changing direction. Or on the successful gear change of an automated system like some mechanical gear transmission tractors have.

If I am moving on a slope and decide I am not comfortable with what I am doing I can either change to a creep, stop and think, or reverse and back out without doing anything but move my foot a little.

People have mentioned backing down a slope on a pond bank, stoping and moving back up the slope, without having to worry about a missed shift while their mower(and tractor) is very near the water's edge.

In my opinion the HST offers LOTS of advantages to the new tractor operator. This advantages diminish as experience is gained I expect.

It may not be a "which tractor is better" question, but rather a "which operator is better" question. The superior operator may notice no advantage to either or any type of tractor transmission.

But I would be willing to bet, if somehow we could do an evaluation of inexperienced operators on different types of tractors, that the operators on HST tractors would find themselves more comfortable when doing tasks on hillsides than those who happened to find themselves on gear tractors for the first time.

This does not mean that either or any tractor is by definition better than the other. But life is life. On our Western PA hills it would be hard to find anyone that would argue that an automatic transmission is not generally easier to drive than a standard shift, when stopped on a steep hill with someone behind close to your back bumper. Just ain't so, except for those who are highly experienced with manual transmissions and clutch operation. The same logic applies to tractors on steep slopes.

<font color="blue">Save the money, buy the manual. Every bit as safe as HST, or safer. </font>

Sorry, but I can't help but take exception to this statement. I strongly doubt it is true for the new operator. I do believe it is maybe true for an experienced operator...but here where I live, with slopes being the rule, rather than the exception, it is my opinion that the HST offers a lot of advantages from the safety perspective...at least for people like me.

<font color="blue"> HST users who state blanket statements like this probably haven't had much, if any, experience with gear transmissions.
</font>
Sorry, but I can't help but think that your blanket statement shows that your may not have much experience with tractors on relatively steep slopes...

Edit: gee...I see you are from PA Roy...I forgot where you were from, but I would have guessed Florida. Honest, not trying to be smart or anything... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #13  
I've actually skidded down one of my hills with the brakes locked up with both GEAR and HST tractors. But for a new user, I'd much rather have an HST on a hill for all sorts of reasons that were outlined by several posters.

Regarding the desire for HP leading to your choice of tractors, I'd say you are confused about what HP can do, for 2 acres you can get to more of your property with a garden tractor than you probably can get to with a 25 to 30hp traditional CUT. I'm not advocating a garden tractor, but I think if you have slopes you won't be able to get much use out of a conventional cut. While you might be getting more land, you might not. And if you do, then you might regret a small tractor like the 2210, but I doubt you will regret getting a tractor that is capable of getting into more of your property that a CUT, and that is why I strongly recommend the 3 brands I pointed out.

I'd say a Ventrac 4200, while expensive, would handle up to about 10 acres of land. While these tractors look smaller than other CUTs and while they in fact are, they are also very capable in many ways. The Power Tracs are better at tractoring chores, more versitile in many ways, and available in more sizes, a PT will easily out tractor a Kioti or a JD at most tractor tasks. Just using a FEL, the PT will probably be 50% more productive than a traditional CUT even if its loader is rated lower. For using the PHD, the PT is probably 100% faster. For mowing, the PT is probably 20-to-30% faster. And on slopes, even a standard PT without a weight transfer system is going to be DRAMATICALLY more stable, but one with a weight transfer system will literally feel like it is glued to the slope. I never would have believed how good a PT was until I saw one first hand. I never would have belived how stable a tractor could be on a steep slope until I did figure 8's and U-turns on slopes with Steiners & Ventracs that some conventional tractors couldn't climb.

Don't get hung up on the power, focus on the ability to use the tractor. For my 2nd CUT I actually bought a SMALLER tractor, and that was after buying a few more acres. But I find the smaller tractor fits into places better, and therefore gets more work done than my larger tractor. The key to picking a tractor is to pick one that will ACTUALLY do the jobs you need done, and will get into as many places on your property WITHOUT flipping over on its side. The funky looking Ventracs, Power Tracs and Steiners will get into those spots and will do far more work than they look like they are capable of doing. And while I am all for saving money, and while I understand that sometimes budgets over ride the correct choice, I would suggest that buying a conventional tractor for work on slopes will lead to longer hours getting less accomplished and when time equals money then it just doesn't make sense to buy the wrong style of tractor.

To put it another way, take a look at a jig saw and a circular saw. Both saws will rip a 4' by 8' sheet of plywood in half. The circular saw will do it in about 30 seconds, the jig saw will take several minutes, and might overheat in the process. When working on slopes, consider the conventional tractors to be jig saws!
 
   / Steep property--need advice.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
OK--some great info here, on both sides of the fence, which is causing me to rethink a couple of things. I still like the shift, but will probably go with the HST for safety, not only for myself, but anyone else who might get on board.

How about the size and weight--Bob (above) feels that the 790 would be too big for 2 acres. I am also considering getting some more land in the future, and would rather err on the side of caution--I looked at both the 4115 and 2210--I liked the idea of the 2210 because I thought the center of gravity would be lower, but after looking at it carefully, I realized that the seat levels on both units are at about the same height, plus the 4115 has bigger tires, which means more ballast. Based on that, it could be that the 4115 has a lower center of gravity than the 2210 if ballasted right--I havent' seen any info on this one way or the other. Plus the 2210 has a lot of exposed stuff awful close to the ground. Also thinking about a Kioti simply to get more weight, but I havent seen them yet (hopefully will next weekend), and also need to figure out how the weight is distributed (hopefully mostly in the frame). Only drawback to the kioti is that I can't switch the bucket with forks on the FEL, so I am thinking of maybe going with a Bush Hog FEL instead.

On top of that, I am still looking at the 3 sites Bob sent, but having trouble finding dealer locations on some of them.

Keep the thread going, I am learning a lot, and thanks to all.

Craig
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #15  
<font color="blue">Only drawback to the kioti is that I can't switch the bucket with forks on the FEL, </font>

There are aftermarket quick-detach buckets available for the Kioti's.
ATI( www.preseeder.com ) and www.horstwelding.com come to mind.

Don
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #16  
Weight does NOT equal stability on hills. Proper balance of the machine will give greater stabiltiy than sheer weight. Lower center of gravity will increase stability, but a narrow tractor with a low COG is going to tip, now matter how heavy it is.

Consider my little Ventrac, it can easily mow 5 acres (I know that because it does). The frame articulates (turns side to side) and oscillates (the front half & back half rise and drop from side to side independantly from each other). It is also a LIGHTWEIGHT little machine. But it is rock solid stable. It may be the wrong model for you, but it illustrates the point. A conventional tractor on flat ground that runs over a 6" rock with its front right tire will either lift the entire front off the ground or will lift the entire side off the ground. At that point, 2 wheels are providing traction, 1 wheel is in the air, and 1 wheel is slipping on a rock. Even on flat ground, in that situation, it could flip. But run over that same rock on a modest (not steep, just modest) slope and you very well may tip the machine, overall weight is irrelevant. Now do the same with a Steiner, Ventrac or PT and the one wheel will rise up on the rock, the other 3 will still be firmly planted on the ground providing positive traction.

But if you are dead set on buying a heavy tractor, then in addition to a Kioti, go look at Mahindra. They also have some very heavy models. Just remember, if you tip it over, you have to pick it back up somehow. Best to get a tractor that won't tip over in the first place.
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #17  
This is on a slight tangent from the subject, but still pertinent to the thread. It is also not directed to an one person. Now for the question, which pertains to brakes. Why is it that are undertones that brakes don't work on steep hills? Most modern CUTs have fluid brakes that should be able to stop the tractor on any slope that is of a dry, non-rolling material.
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #18  
Jerry, I know that brakes were mentioned in my post, as well as others. Brakes work on slopes with any transmission, I didn't mean to imply they don't. I just pointed out I've slipped down slopes with both gear & hst machines and I would prefer to slip down with a HST maching. But I never answered why. Simply because of all the things Henro wrote about control in other conditions. Slipping is slipping, I prefer not to do it at all, and I think with an HST machine I have more control on slopes so that I don't slip nearly as often.
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #19  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( common sense tells me that the HST is the safer choice. Simply because when the foot is lifted off the directional pedal, the tractor stops. Requires no thought action other than lifting one's foot. )</font>
This statement by Henro, and the one by New_York_Yankees_Fan, while generally true, are not completely valid. On my HST, and all that I've been on, simply letting off the HST pedal on a slope does not stop the tractor completely. It does not allow "freewheeling," but it doesn't stop either. I often have to use my brakes when stopping to come down a slope to my creek or I'd end up in the creek. This is just the nature of HST, so some diligence is still necessary.
I have to agree with anyone who says HST is probably safer in the beginning for an inexperienced operator, but anyone can quickly and efficiently begin to use a geared model just as proficiently. It really is a subjective decision. I have issues with HST everytime it hits the pressure relief when I know that with a gear, I'd go a little further before needing to give up. That said, I still like the HST, but would prefer that PRV's were able to release at much higher pressures.
I'm not going to recommend a tractor as I don't LIVE on slopes, but have just a few ditch banks and creek banks to encounter on occasion. I doubt that I would want a CUT for slopes unless I were able to move the tires out extensively.
I suspect Bob has a good point with ventrac and powertrac etc., and there are many other "slope friendly" types out there that may be better choices.
John
John
 
   / Steep property--need advice. #20  
Bob,
This wasn't something that was directed at you. It has been a reoccurring thing for some time from more than one person. That was why I had the question.

<font color="blue"> I would prefer to slip down with a HST maching.</font>
Not me for sure. It is just like in a truck, I want to be able to totally disengage the drive train. The reason is because if there is engine braking or drag, the machine will have a better chance of remaining a slide. If the clutch is used and the brakes are applied in such a way that the wheels are allowed to roll, then you can usually regain at least some control.
 
 
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