Breakout Force

   / Breakout Force #1  

Diesel_Boy

Silver Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
110
Location
Central Maine
Hi all. New to TBN, and comparing specs. Could someone please explain exactly what is meant by "breakout force" when it is listed on FEL's? Does it have anything to do with how much weight it can lift? thanks for the education, i appreciate it.
 
   / Breakout Force #2  
I believe break out force is the curling of the bucket. there is more force curling the bucket than lifting the bucket David.
 
   / Breakout Force #3  
My understanding of the ASAE S301.3 standard is breakout force is the peak lifting force of the FEL, typically occuring with the FEL at ground level. Because the geometry of the load changes over the loader's range of motion lifting force isn't constant. This is why it’s misleading to look at only the lifting power at full height when comparing loaders. Its also why some people think their loader is more powerful then the manufactures specification, since when they can lift several hundred more pounds to 3' feet off the ground then their loader rated power at max height of 6' or 8'.

Rollback power is a different measurement, and not often cited. Copies of ASAE aren't free, so I can't provide a reference to the standard, but if you check out JD TLB110 loader performance specifications at TLB110 you'll see they are two distinct ratings.

Added...

I found part of the standard on line ( ASAE 301.3 ), look at paragraph 5.1.5 for details.
 
   / Breakout Force #4  
Breakout force is the maximum vertical force with the bucket at ground level using the boom lift cylinders only. The location of the vertical force can be the bucket pins or further forward. You have to read the specifications to see what is being referenced.

Rollback force is determined using the bucket curl cylinders only. It can be cited at ground level or higher. You have to read the specifications to know what is being referenced.

JackIL
 
   / Breakout Force #5  
Breakout force is measured using the bucket curl cylinders. It is the amount of force the bucket can curl or (breakout)
 

Attachments

  • 738917-pict%201.jpg
    738917-pict%201.jpg
    25.1 KB · Views: 4,684
   / Breakout Force #7  
Is it possible for JackIL and for Boomerang1 to both be correct?

From the ASAE specs, breakout force = 5.1.5 Breakout force—at pivot pin (Y): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert at the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line.

Now if that is not clear enough, also according to the ASAE specs, breakout force = 5.1.6 Breakout force (Z): Vertical lifting force, in newtons (pounds), the loader will exert located 800 mm (31.5 in.) forward of the bucket pivot pin centerline using the lift cylinders only, with the bucket horizontal at ground line.

The above definitions apply to "Front End Agricultural Loaders," not to commercial front end loaders as are illustrated in the picture/diagram posted by Boomerang1.

Now the problem I see is that we know that John Deere applies the ASAE specs to their brand of tractors, but we don't know what many other brands of tractors use for their definition. I have always used the commercial definition as posted by Boomerang1, but I suspect that I have been wrong to do so. At least as it pertains to JD, I have been wrong to do so. But what about the other brands? There are many others here on TBN that use the Boomerang1 supplied definition, and others who use the JackIL's ASAE version, and I can think of at least one who has switched back and forth between the two definitions! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif


Honestly I don't know which one is correct in terms of real use, but I suspect that the most useful one is one we don't measure. Personally I'd like to see them give us a measurement at the bucket CUTTING EDGE that uses BOTH the curl and the lifting cylinders. Seems to me that when I bury my bucket, I use both cylinders to get the load out of the pile and the cutting edge is what really needs to be freed up from the pile so I'd suggest that is the most useful way to measure it. But then again, I'm just applying real world logic, and I don't even play an engineer on TV in my spare time.
 
   / Breakout Force #8  
If you look closely at Boomerang1's diagram breakout force is directed upwards. Moment (MK in the diagram) is another way of saying torque, restated the equation in the diagram would read :

Torque = Breakout Force * Distance

As I said in less technical terms breakout force is defined as the FEL's maximum lifting force. Paragraph 5.1.5 calls for measuring the force at the pins and paragraph 5.1.6 calls for measuring at 500 mm on CUTs (800 mm on UTs) forward of the pins. The term breakout force means the same for both AG and construction loaders, though position of measurement may be different. If numbers for both 5.1.5 and 5.1.6 is reported you can calculate the rollback force (torque) the loader can assert. I am just an electrical engineer but these concepts are straight from freshman physics.

When breaking material out of the ground the FEL has to over come the structural strength (shear it) in addition to the weight of the material to be lifted. Since the bucket is supported underneath curling the bucket directs almost all the force into shearing the material. Using the just the lift cylinders reduces the shearing force by the force need to lift the material. All this is important if your digging with the bucket, but if you are lifting logs with a brush bucket rollback power is of far less concern then breakout force.

What I'm trying to say is for real world performance you can't just focus on one or two numbers and get the whole picture. Its important to understand how the FEL will be used, much like how the tractor itself will be used, and then compare the most relevent specifications. When I was shopping last year I was able to get at least partial ASAE S301.3 ratings for each model I was considering. Just read the specifications, if the ASAE standard was used it will be mentioned.
 
   / Breakout Force #9  
I found an article online and saved the page. However the url is missing from the file and I can't remember the site. I will see if I can post some more pages from the file.
 
   / Breakout Force #10  
<font color="green"> If you look closely at Boomerang1's diagram breakout force is directed upwards. Moment (MK in the diagram) is another way of saying torque, restated the equation in the diagram would read :

Torque = Breakout Force * Distance
</font>

Yes, it is directed upwards but is also directed back as well as part of the calculation includes subtracting the distance of travel around the pivot point. You clearly show that with your restating of Boomerang1's calculation by translating it to torque. The while Boomerang1's diagram shows the curl as part of the process, I don't see 'curl' or 'torque' in any part of the ASAE specs quoted above. All I see in the ASAE spec is use of the lift cylinder with the bucket bottom parallel to the ground; it clearly states that it uses the lift cylinder and not the curl cylinder. You state <font color="green"> The term breakout force means the same for both AG and construction loaders, though position of measurement may be different. </font> But I just don't see the same measurements being used in the ASAE CUT/UT specs and those in the diagram provided by Boomerang1.

You state <font color="green"> If numbers for both 5.1.5 and 5.1.6 is reported you can calculate the rollback force (torque) the loader can assert. </font> And while it has been 20+ years since I had freshman physics, I don't see how that can be true unless you assume that the curl cylinders have the same capacities as the lift cylinders and I am not sure that that is a valid assumption, or I am simply confused.

Again, I'm not going to pretend to be an engineer, I am just willing to question things until I get them figured out.

I do totally agree with you that you can't just focus on one or two numbers to determine real world performance. I also totally agree with you that breaking material out of the ground is different than lifting loose material like logs, and that shear force is a big issue. I just don't see how Boomerang1's diagram for construction equipment is equivalent to the ASAE 5.1.5 and 5.1.6 specs.



I think it is fair to say that breakout force is even more misunderstood that lift capacity. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
 
Top