too old to do it by hand

[IslandTractor]

OK CT and BC, I'll take the bait. RPG comin' your way. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I will acknowledge up front that I am replying not only to this particular thread but somewhat to somebody's favorite all purpose recommendation for a Grand L in every driveway. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif We won't mention names (at this point).

Miles2go specifically described his needs well enough to make clear he will not be clearing or maintaining 50 acres of meadow/woods etc. He will be doing incremental work to maintain a fire break and what sounds like very limited mowing around his house. He'll be maintaining a driveway too. Undoubtedly there will be other odd jobs but nowhere do I see him claim to be clearing a forest or haying 25 acres etc.

Exactly which of these tasks requires more than a 20hp tractor? Which task requires a pro $25-30000 tractor/grapple set up? I'm sure a 4000 lb lawn mower to trim around the house sounds reasonable to you but for most of us that sort of task is best done by a Sears riding mower and even a 2000lb tractor with MMM or RFM is excessive. Maintaining a fire break: I can do that sort of work with my half as large, half as expensive tractor. Maybe it will take a bit longer and I'll need to cut the wood into eight foot chunks instead of 20 foot chunks but it can be done. Maintaining the road: a BX24 or CK20 or B7510 can pull a rake or box blade. Hey, maybe he needs to take one more pass than your big ol' tractor but then again, maybe not. Those machines can all pull a six foot rake or a four to five foot BB. Is he maintaining a superhighway or his driveway?

Of course the denizens of TBN all know and love CT's fascination with the admittedly excellent Grand Ls, but let's be a bit more discriminating about who needs one. You do because you are in the business of moving large amounts of brush and logs presumably five days a week. It is a professional tool. There is a large group of tractor buyers/users on TBN, myself included, who use tractors to maintain the landscape around their home or vacation land. We are not looking to maximize work per billable hour. We seek capable, reliable machines that also balance size, power and economy. Your one size fits all philosophy doesn't work. (OK that was a bit harsh, I know you actually recommend anything from 38 to 50hp Grand Ls so it isn't really one size fits all /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif). And it isnt' just you CT, in the Kioti forum people seem too eager in my humble opinion to leap to the CK30 (30hp) when there are only relatively small gains over the smaller CK20 sibling in performance for the types of jobs that a homeowner/amateur landscaper will be doing. I think you (CT) state that lift capacity is a critical consideration: fair enough but the CK20 fel can lift 1074lbs. How much more lift capacity does someone like Miles2go need for his work?

Consider the following when choosing a tractor: We are (mostly) boys on this forum and therefore genetically and hormonally biased towards larger, bigger equals better and more desirable. Ain't always the case. Sometimes it is appropriate to fight the testosterone poisoning that addles our brains /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif. The right machine for the job does not equal the biggest machine I can get onto my property or past the CFO. For the money you would invest in a 38+ hp Grand L, FEL and grapple, (I am guessing $25-27K) I can buy a 20hp tractor, loader, backhoe, brush hog, BB, rake, FEL grapple attachment and have plenty of money left over for a Hawaiian vacation (+/- CFO). Those are about all the tools/implements that Miles2go would need for his property maintenance. And a bigger more expensive base tractor just gets him more size than he needs as a homeowner and maybe one tool (FEL/grapple) that will occasionally save him time over what the 20hp version will. What if he needs to dig a trench to maintain his road? What if there is a big stump to remove? A big tractor investment comes up short unless he forks over another 6-7K for the appropriate BH. And the BB, rake, mowers etc that would be sized for the Grand L would also cost more and be more cumbersome to store. Just how much time would they save someone like Miles2go???

It may be inappropriate but I kinda get the feeling that the bigger tractor is best philosophy is sometimes as narrow minded as adolescent male (well not always adolescent) focus on breasts when assessing a woman /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif (I can only say that as there are so few women on this board to object). Size ain't the only thing that matters in the long run. Make sure the whole package fits your needs. What do you give up by focusing solely on big breasts (oops I meant horsepower)?

So, CT, I await your response. I know you well enough to know you will not take this rebuke easily and might see it as a personal attack. This is not, repeat not an attack on you, you just happen to be the most reliably predictable and verbal advocate the more and bigger is better philosophy here these days. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Size ain't everything. Remember David slew Goliath. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Big_Cajun]

I see your point Isle Tractor:

I guess my preference on tractors with more power is more of a want vs. need issue...but still, I've made mistakes in the past by buying the smaller, less powerful product and kicking myself for not getting the more powerful unit.

Fact of the matter is that it's only opinion, and Miles2Go will be able to make a well-informed decision as to what tractor best suits his needs.

I hope he gets exactly what he wants and needs, as some of us can't do both. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Disclaimer: I'm not flaming anyone on this.

BC

 

[IslandTractor]

Cajun,

There's hardly a soul on TBN who doesn't want bigger and better. I don't know if it is simply a function of being male or if this is a particular characteristic of the tracter-itis that infects us all. My point is basically that we should be restraining ourselves and using a carefully thought through needs assessment before moving up. The professional farmers certainly do this and I doubt many of them have bigger tractors than they need or can economically justify. It is the part timers (myself included) who seem more prone to talking themselves into bigger more powerful tractors than they really need for the job.

It is so easy to be carried away by the bigger is better philosophy that sometimes I think we need a "tractors anonymous" group to keep ourselves in check. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

*** Warning - Long Post! You might want to take a potty break before you start reading! ***

Ed -

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back to you - I was mesmerized by Jamie's little dancing banana man,

and have been unable to take my eyes off it, much less work on a response. I shall try to avert my gaze as I write this for fear of falling under his spell again. Wasted an entire day staring at that thing, I did.

I want to start by saying that I didn't take the least bit of offense at your post. I thought it was respectful, thoughtful and very polite. A little bit about the "attack" thing ... first, I firmly believe that we all have a lot to say, on a wide variety of subjects. Not just about tractors, and not just here on TBN, but in every aspect of our lives. I just like to see things said in a kind, peaceful and respectful way - and again, your post was just that. It's really not black and white when it comes to defining the dividing line between expressing an opposing viewpoint, and "attacking" another person. It's like that famous court case involving pornography, where the judge said something like "I might not be able to precisely define it, but I think I know it when I see it". For me, one of the "defining" elements of what I would call "attacking" speech is the use of "negative adjectives"; ridiculous, foolish, absurd, stupid, idiotic; or outright name-calling - "you're an idiot", "you're a jerk", etc.; or what I'd call "labelling"; "kubota-lover", "amsoil-lover", "**** retentive"; or subjective judgments stated as objective fact, like "you worry too much", "you think too much", "you're wrong" ... in fact, "you're" anything is in my opinion a "red flag" that indicates to me that someone is straying from just saying what he feels about something, and is instead directing anger at someone. It's what is known as an "ad hominem" ("to the man") comment. There has been much written about the benefits of using "I" speech instead of "you" speech.

When I point out my preference for a certain method of communication, I hope (and do believe) that it doesn't mean that I don't welcome having my views challenged. I do welcome it, because it's the only way I'm going to learn new things, or find out that there are flaws in my logic, or that I am just plain "wrong" about something. In short (hmm, too late for that I guess), it's not what is said to me, or to others, but more how it is said. Is it being said kindly, with the intention of helping me see something that I might not see, in order to help me, or is it being said out of anger, with the intention of trying to "tear me down", "rip me a new one", or otherwise not be in the spirit of trying to really help me?

That's the spirit in which I do my best to express myself; as I would have others express themselves to me. And again, this is not directed at you. I think we've always gotten along great, and I have the utmost respect for you and the way you express yourself. I just want people to "know where I'm coming from" when it comes to this whole "attack" thing, and to just say what it is that I like, and what i don't like, when it comes to exchanging ideas. Again, I didn't take your post as a rebuke or an attack, and I really do welcome kind, constructive criticism and "challenging" of my opinions.

*****

OK, now to the heart of the matter; namely, why I'm thinking that an L3830 (well, OK - maybe an L3430) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif might just be the "ticket" for Miles2Go.

I really do pay a lot of attention to what posters say ( before I tell them to just go out and buy a big Grand L). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Here's a recap of what Miles has said:

<font color="blue"> For the manzanita clearing my concerns are stability and ground clearance on the uneven slopes -- and the ability to grub the manzanita and then move it into piles
on flatter ground where it would be safe to burn. </font>

<font color="blue"> Our house sits in the middle of 50 acres, most of
which has slopes ranging from 5, 10, up to 30 percent. </font>

<font color="blue">As for price, I can see going as high as $25K, if the equipment is more functional. </font>

<font color="blue">Also, I'm concerned about both ground clearance *and* stability. How is wheel-width and center-of-gravity on your Kioti? Have you run into any tippy situations in the marsh? </font>

To me, these sentiments give me a lot of reasons to recommend a tractor like a 3830 over a CK20. The extent to which it might seem unfair to compare the two speaks directly (in my opinion) to how much better the larger tractor might be suited to the tasks at hand. (And after all, Toadhill was recommending a CK35, Red Rocker was somewhat advocating a CK30HST, and I'm going to take a back seat to kossetx, who might just be right when he says:

<font color="blue">A 20-25 hp tractor does not have enough weight or power to grub out trees. A 50 4wd is marginal for this job. I also don't believe the linkage on these tractors is strong enough to handle the tremendous amount torque that is applied by grubbing. Check out the heavier Mahindra's. They have 35-75 hp tractors that are not compact tractors and they weigh 5000+ lbs. </font>

Go get 'em - I'll hold your coat! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My 5030 with the 853 loader isn't even well-suited (at all) for grubbing out trees, and it's gotten a 2,400 lb. log off the ground, plus an 800-lb grapple. So I just don't see how much use a KL120 loader with 1,074 lbs. of lift (at the pins) is going to be, especially with a grapple on it. The 3830 with a 723 loader is rated at 1,870 at the pins. And I do think a grapple is in order for moving the grubbed manzanita into burn piles. Maybe the grapple could be modified a bit for grubbing, but that's another story I guess.

And as far as stability and ground clearance is concerned; CK20 vs. 3830: wheelbase 57.9/72.4; width 44.1/66; ground clearance 12.2/14.6; weight 1962/3340.

Other comparisons: 3PH lift 1109/2760, hydraulic flow 7.6/13.2 (for that backhoe); breakout force 1511 at pins/2605 at 500mm.; hydro ranges 2 vs. 3; and of course, more horsepower and the bigger tires and added weight to get it to the ground.

I don't believe that bigger is always better, but I do believe that big enough is better than not big enough. Plus, there's my theory of the "Conservation of Money as it Applies to Tractors" (a corollary of the First Law of Thermodynamics). Your money isn't destroyed, it just changes form, from cash into iron. You can always get most of it back if you want to, and you've kicked some serious butt in the meantime. A good, used 3830HST w/723 loader for about 20K would hold its value pretty darn well, and would leave 5 grand left over for a grapple, box blade, mower, or other things.

As for David vs. Goliath - lucky shot! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Plus, I think David should have been checked for performance-enhancing drugs). /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

OK, that's it for now, my gumbo is getting cold. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But lastly ... I really don't think that this, or much else in life, needs to be about "who's right" or "who's wrong". I'd like it to more like "how can we help each other have the kinds of lives that we'd like to have", while we get the things done that we'd like to get done, and enjoy each other's company and comradeship along the way.

These are just my opinions. As I said, I'm not saying I'm "right". As always, I welcome a good, friendly debate. Feel free to keep those thought-provoking posts coming - when they're as nicely said as yours was - no problemo! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Very cordially, John

 

[IslandTractor]

CT,

Me thinks you missed my point. I was not comparing the CK20 to the L3830, I ain't that dumb. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif My point was that the tasks outlined by Miles2go could be very effectively accomplished by a tractor, such as the CK20TLB, which is much smaller than the L3830. And, that because the total cost would allow him to purchase a backhoe, that this small TLB combo would actually be a more efficient stump grubbing machine than the bigger tractor with FEL alone.

The stability issue is an interesting one and I am not certain if there is a way to compare the static stability of these two tractors. Yes, your L3830 has a wider stance but it also has a higher center of gravity. Don't know how to calculate which would be more stable on a sideways slope. However, as you may have noted, I actually had previously recommended that Miles2go check out the PowerTracs which I think you would agree are going to be more stable than either the Kioti or Kubota.

I don't think we disagree about the comparative cabibilities of the CK20 and L3830, the disagreement is over which would better meet M2gos specific needs in the long run.

As he has been hanging out in the PowerTrac forum recently, I guess he might be choosing something altogether different anyway.

See ya.

Ed

 

[miles2go]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And as far as stability and ground clearance is concerned; 3830 vs. CK20: wheelbase 57.9/72.4; width 44.1/66; ground clearance 12.2/14.6; weight 1962/3340.)</font>

Guys, I really appreciate the quality of discourse here. And I'm keeping my mind open to as many suggested solutions as I can.

I have a quick question about the quote: should it in fact read CK20 vs 3830, instead of the the other way around? I'm guessing the 3830 would have the bigger numbers in the comparison.

Now back to the game ...

I'm considering a more powerful tractor after what I've heard in several threads on this board. And I wonder if the more powerful, heavier tractor like the 3830 or a Mahindra couldn't handle the manzanita grubbing and removal with a suitable front grapple bucket.

And could the correct front bucket on a more powerful, heavier tractor handle the modest grading chores I have in mind -- eliminating the need and bother of the backhoe? I might have to test that by renting the B21 and seeing how it handles my dirt. And ask local dealers what they think, given their knowledge of local conditions.

Eliminate the backhoe and a lot more tractors might fit my "bill" -- in terms of price and stability on my hills.

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Hi m2g -

Oops, you are quite correct that I should have said "CK20 vs. 3830" instead of the other way around - I just changed that. As for doing your grading with the front bucket; I am really just speaking mostly from "book learnin'" here, but I don't think you'd be very happy or productive trying to do that. I've never used one, but I think a box blade would be your "weapon of choice" for maintaining your driveway and doing other grading chores. A box blade would also make a pretty good counterweight for your FEL work.

I obviously don't know as well as you do exactly what tasks you had in mind for the backhoe, but can only suggest that you just try to envision what a HD bucket with a toothbar can do for you, versus a backhoe. From what I hear, toothbars really add a lot of functionality to a bucket when it comes to do some fairly serious digging; but again, it's obviously not going to do what a backhoe would do.

I sure do think you're right that having a backhoe on the tractor would make it a lot less stable on those slopes of yours, but you could always get one down the road and just put it on when you need it. I'd recommend a backhoe subframe for strength, and it's gotta be easier to hook a hoe up to a subframe than to a 3PH - but again, that's just book learnin' talking.

Lastly, when and if it comes time to figure out how you want to control a front grapple, or the top and tilt that would add an incredible amount of functionality to a box blade, you might want to take a gander at these two threads: Remotes and Top and Tilt? and To grapple or to not grapple... The first one contains some particularly lively discussion that makes this thread look like a "love-in". /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Electric/hydraulic solenoids are very, very slick, and not appreciably more $$ than conventional remotes - just one more thing to think about (and for me to catch "flak" about). Oh well, that's what foxholes are for. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take care, John

 

[AutoUnionTypeC]

Right, I thought that might have been the direction you were heading...... I'm really not sure about the shearing capabilities of the front-end loader. I have no problem shearing the aforementioned Multiflora Rose and Sumac. I don’t bother with the root system even though they both will try and come back. I’m reclaiming the land and mow it regularly, so unless I stop mowing they have no chance. I think your Manzanita is a different bird though. I suspect Sumac may get as big but is a much softer wood. If you still plan on cutting by hand and transporting with the front end loader and grapple I think the 20-25 hp tractors are capable but a 30 -35hp tractor is more appropriate. A 40 hp tractor like the 3830 is well and truly overkill for simply transporting brush and grading……IMHO.
Put me square in the middle of John and Ed on that one, good thing I’m armed.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

If a dozen smokejumpers with Pulaski’s can make a respectable fire break I’m sure one man and a good tractor can as well. I wish you luck whatever you choose.

Regards, Jamie

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Hiya Ed -

Sorry about the unintended implications of the head-to-head comparison of the 3830/CK20. I know that you know your tractors, and I didn't mean it to sound as if you didn't realize there was a big difference between the two.

And you're right, I was somewhat "missing the boat" (or ferry?) when it comes right down to your basic point that the backhoe, not the loader, just might be the best tool for getting those d*** manazanitas out of the ground. Man they sound nasty.

Anyway, your points are well made, and well taken. I do love the functionality of TLB's, and it is amazing what 20 diesel HP (or less) can do, especially when you consider that a human being can produce just one-tenth of a HP (and not all day long, either!). It'll be very interesting to see what our friend m2g ends up with - I'm just glad I don't have to make that decision! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm just thinking about stability on hills with the backhoe, and having to get set up into "hoe position" to deal with each tree, as opposed to just attacking them with a grapple? I dunno, just thinking out loud here ... or trying to think anyway ... I keep thinking about breasts for some reason. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Take care, John

 

[Big_Cajun]

That's almost as fun as thinking about tractors /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BC