I know Z - no offense taken. Just wanted to point out that type of use is as important as skill level in some situations. I use mine with forks inside my shop quite a bit as well, another situation where the HST is just more ideal for my use. Others who use their tractors differently could definatly get better use out of a gear.
Manual vs Hydro Transmissions
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I know Z - no offense taken. Just wanted to point out that type of use is as important as skill level in some situations. I use mine with forks inside my shop quite a bit as well, another situation where the HST is just more ideal for my use. Others who use their tractors differently could definatly get better use out of a gear.
dirtworksequip
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- 2006 JD 3520 w/cab & 300CX loader. 1995 JD 870 w/440 loader & 8b backhoe.JD 455 w/54" mower deck.
One thing I do beleive is that owning both a geared tractor and hydro. The JD3520 hydro has 9 more hp than the JD870 and I beleive that if I hooked them drawbar to drawbar the geared 870 would the the hands down winner. Have not done it. If I do I'll post the results.
Someone asked about clutch replacement costs and if $1800 was out of whack. It's probably about right for a dealer to do. Single dry clutch with pressure plate and bearings is 250-500. Dual stage dry clutch, PP and bearings is 600-1000. Depending on quality, brand and where purchased. For instance, the clutch disc for my Ford is $85 from the low cost EBAY types. The FNH Heavy Duty disc is almost $200. It is also 2x the thickness and made with a far higher quality material. You get what you pay for is sometimes true. To change the clutch, the tractor has to be split into two pieces - engine half and transmission half. Labor to do that is 8-16 hours depending on tractor model etc. So if you spend $500 on parts and supplies and 10 hours of labor you are pretty quickly up to $1500. So an estimate of $1800 is not out of line.
As far as reliability, there is no significant difference between any type of transmission when used correctly. We all know what happens with a teenager and a stick shift car, some tractors are operated by people that run them the same way. (no, not any of US!) Aggressive use of the clutch and gears can put a lot of shock load into a transmission and drive-line. That means that a gear tractor can be damaged more easily than an HST by enthusiastic or aggressive use. So while by design there is no inherent reliability issue with any type of transmission, a gear tranny can be damaged by abuse easier. (Inexperienced operators often abuse gear transmissions, especially the clutches, unknowingly)
Are gear transmissions cheap to repair? No. Repair costs are dominated by labor. The labor to fix a gear transmission is basically the same as any other. Parts may be a more or less. Dealers want ~$250 for one gear and if you have to replace one, you typically have to replace more. So, I don't see an HST being way more expensive to repair. Maybe a service tech can look up some prices and comment with data?
How long does a clutch last? Depends on what you do with it. If you are doing field work it's like a salesman's car on the highway. There might be a lot of miles or hours, but little wear on the clutch and brakes. If you are doing a lot of tight maneuvering, FEL work or moving heavy loads short distances the clutch may go out at 500-1000 hours. Maybe 1/2 that or 2x depending on the use and skill of the operator. FEL use drives you to feather the clutch to slowly power into a pile of dirt and the heavy load makes you feather it more to get going. Each time you use the clutch is scuffs off friction material. Slipping (feathering) the clutch does that for a longer time, heats it to a higher temperature and wears it faster. If field work is like highway miles, then FEL work with a gear transmission is like a taxi cab in crowded down town traffic. And yes, wet clutches last longer than dry due to heat dissipation to the fluid being much better.
When you look at the total lifetime costs, the higher initial purchase price and very slightly lower fuel economy is offset by the more frequent clutch replacements.
When people talk about "farmers" not using HST, they don't include that those tractors mostly don't have FEL's and they are probably exclusively used for field work. In those applications there is no benefit from HST, in fact the lower PTO hp and higher fuel use are a detriment. And when people talk about the benefits of HST, they don't mention that they have a FEL on it and may use it for applications like tight quarters mowing. They especially don't tell you that the typical operator has limited experience, so the ease of use provided by an HST pretty much outweighs all other factors. For example: the annual extra fuel cost is probably 10-20 bucks for an HST if 100 hours are put on and the fuel use is 5-10% higher.
Best advice is for you to try as many tractors as you can. FEL work, tight quarters operations, attach implements and anything else you can talk your sales person into letting you do. Then pick the one you LIKE the best.
Happy Hunting!
jb
As far as reliability, there is no significant difference between any type of transmission when used correctly. We all know what happens with a teenager and a stick shift car, some tractors are operated by people that run them the same way. (no, not any of US!) Aggressive use of the clutch and gears can put a lot of shock load into a transmission and drive-line. That means that a gear tractor can be damaged more easily than an HST by enthusiastic or aggressive use. So while by design there is no inherent reliability issue with any type of transmission, a gear tranny can be damaged by abuse easier. (Inexperienced operators often abuse gear transmissions, especially the clutches, unknowingly)
Are gear transmissions cheap to repair? No. Repair costs are dominated by labor. The labor to fix a gear transmission is basically the same as any other. Parts may be a more or less. Dealers want ~$250 for one gear and if you have to replace one, you typically have to replace more. So, I don't see an HST being way more expensive to repair. Maybe a service tech can look up some prices and comment with data?
How long does a clutch last? Depends on what you do with it. If you are doing field work it's like a salesman's car on the highway. There might be a lot of miles or hours, but little wear on the clutch and brakes. If you are doing a lot of tight maneuvering, FEL work or moving heavy loads short distances the clutch may go out at 500-1000 hours. Maybe 1/2 that or 2x depending on the use and skill of the operator. FEL use drives you to feather the clutch to slowly power into a pile of dirt and the heavy load makes you feather it more to get going. Each time you use the clutch is scuffs off friction material. Slipping (feathering) the clutch does that for a longer time, heats it to a higher temperature and wears it faster. If field work is like highway miles, then FEL work with a gear transmission is like a taxi cab in crowded down town traffic. And yes, wet clutches last longer than dry due to heat dissipation to the fluid being much better.
When you look at the total lifetime costs, the higher initial purchase price and very slightly lower fuel economy is offset by the more frequent clutch replacements.
When people talk about "farmers" not using HST, they don't include that those tractors mostly don't have FEL's and they are probably exclusively used for field work. In those applications there is no benefit from HST, in fact the lower PTO hp and higher fuel use are a detriment. And when people talk about the benefits of HST, they don't mention that they have a FEL on it and may use it for applications like tight quarters mowing. They especially don't tell you that the typical operator has limited experience, so the ease of use provided by an HST pretty much outweighs all other factors. For example: the annual extra fuel cost is probably 10-20 bucks for an HST if 100 hours are put on and the fuel use is 5-10% higher.
Best advice is for you to try as many tractors as you can. FEL work, tight quarters operations, attach implements and anything else you can talk your sales person into letting you do. Then pick the one you LIKE the best.
Happy Hunting!
jb
Glowplug
Veteran Member
Incredibly well said jb!! That basically summarizes it all. Really no need for any more posts!
slowrev
Elite Member
Was it this thread or another one where a guy with a hydro, was told by his dealer that a factory rebuilt tranny was all they could do for him, no local reapir available ?
I can repaie any gear type of tranny, I cannot make the same claim about hydro trannies.
Ben
I can repaie any gear type of tranny, I cannot make the same claim about hydro trannies.
Ben
DK35vince
Super Member
slowrev said:
Thats probably the biggest reason I went with a gear transmission.(shuttle shift).
If I do have a problem sometime down the road I can repair it myself. I can replace my own clutch/pressure plate for around $350 if the need arises.
Hydro trannys are nice and easy to use, but I wouldn't have a clue where to begin if I had a problem or failure of some sort and would be forced to spend big $$$ for the dealer to repair it for me.
radman1
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I have a 1994 JD 5300, replaced clutch at about 3500 hours. Cost by dealer was about $1900. Mostly used as utility tractor some loader work. Was used by landscaper when I bought it at 900 hours. I think loaders are the hardest thing on a clutch. Constantly shifting and clutching with loader and gets tiresome. I also have Case-IH DX29 and JD 3720 both are hydro. For loader work or mowing, hydro wins hands down. For just minor work around the house/farm, again hydro. Hydros can do the grunt work of tilling/pulling but for me that is relatively infrequent purpose for those tractors. I'll take the ease of hydro whenever possible. Used to have Kubota 3710gst. Gst is good if you can't make up your mind and want a little of both worlds.
My preference in the hydro is the twin pedal JD over the tredle style DX29. I use to believe the tredle was just fine, but once you try the twin pedal of the JD, it is better. Less effort, easier to control over rougher ground and I feel has better control for finesse work. JD's motion match and the new Kubota equivalent make hydro's even better.
My preference in the hydro is the twin pedal JD over the tredle style DX29. I use to believe the tredle was just fine, but once you try the twin pedal of the JD, it is better. Less effort, easier to control over rougher ground and I feel has better control for finesse work. JD's motion match and the new Kubota equivalent make hydro's even better.
slowrev said:
Ben,
I do agree --> nothing is cheaper than repairing it yourself. And many of us old time gear heads have torn into enough stuff to not be afraid of spinning gears. However, from the Kubota workshop manual there are 15 pages on the disassembly and servicing of the HST. The gear transmission has 20 pages. It does look like it is simpler to repair the HST. After all it is just a pump hooked to a motor. Ok, it's a little more complex than that, but not much. I would bet that if you have the manual, you could easily rebuild a hydro.
I truely think that any transmission is going to be swapped for a factory rebuilt one if you go thru the dealer. Shop labor rates and the ability to get competent service techs are going to make that the most cost effective solution. Could be wrong....
jb
slowrev
Elite Member
john_bud said:
JB, first off don't get me wrong, hydros are nice especially for loader work.
And are a good choice for those who will be trading in their tractor on a new one in a few years. Myself, I have trouble letting go of tractors and just keep them
My concern is mainly the aluminium hydro cases that many/most of them are made of. How do you repair a worn out housing ?
Also rubber seals wear, get hard/shrink and require replacement eventually in any hydro. a gear tranny oinly has seals to keep the oil in
I may wind up with a hydro someday, but my main idea with tractors is to keep them simple. No computers and as little Aluminum and plastic as possible.
Ben
Oleozz
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When I was discussing transmissions with the local JD dealer he claimed that just about all the compacts he was selling had hydros in them. I asked him about ground engaging equipment and he said they had no problems with the hydros no matter what they were used for. I ended up getting a tractor with a shuttle shift and a dry single plate clutch but if the hydro option would have been available in the Kiotis at that time it would have been my choice.
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