Tractor Comparisons and HP

wkpoor · 02-27-2007, 01:17 AM

I was at the Louisville show a couple of weeks ago. I was looking at all the new stuff and asked a few questions here and there. It seems to me the manufactures are playing some marketing games just like they did 100yrs ago. I was looking at a new TN75. I asked they guy if that meant 75HP. He said yes it did. I then asked is that the PTO HP or engine. He said engine, the PTO is 60HP. I then said, then its really a 60HP tractor. I thought the standard rating was on the PTO or the power to the ground, not engine by itself. What ever happened to the Nebraska test?? He replied we don't intend to sell in Nebraska.
So basically we can call a tractor whatever we like since no indepenant testing was done to confirm anything, its whatever you like. Makes direct comparisons a little tricky. And since I walked around and looked at them one right after another I got real dissatisfied with what I saw. Engine power is all over the spectrum and PTO power can be almost 20HP less than the acclaimed engine HP. Makes me wonder how one brand stacks up against the other. Of coarse if there really was that many brands to start with. There were alot of similarites once you looked beyond the paint and stickers and fiberglass.

Z-Michigan · 02-27-2007, 01:41 PM

Sounds like the rep was an idiot. And last I checked New Holland sold in Nebraska and had their stuff tested for sale there. One reason I really like the NE tractor tests (and comparable OECD tests performed in other countries) is because it cuts through all the claims and tells you some basic, but really important, information. It also gives you fuel usage information that the manufacturers don't even make claims about.

rback33 · 02-27-2007, 05:17 PM

OK, I'll chime in here. I'll agree the guys answers we pathetic for sure, BUT as far I know when people talk "how many horses"... they are generally asking about engine and the follow with "and to the PTO?" This really makes sense because not ALL tractors come with a PTO. Many of you may not run into this, but out here in the high HP ag world of Kansas it's normal. Most companies (compacts especially) work the HP into the model somehow. I have always taken model number to be plus or minus to the engine HP. Where the Rep. really went off the deep end was on the Nebraska comment. Especially since you can go to the NE site and read the report on the tractor. It tested HIGHER than the 60 PTO he stated... 63 and some change to be more exact. I think you response caught him off guard and he lost control of his thoughts and mouth. I am pretty sure you can buy that tractor in Nebraska. Other areas may be different but around here if you ask for HP you will get the engine HP as your answer, almost with out excpetion.

Agro-oti · 02-27-2007, 07:52 PM

What must be remembered about HP ratings these days,is that we are in a global market. North America is only a part of where tractors are sold. PTO hp is not all that important in other parts of the world like it is here. Confusing sometimes,yes but what is'nt at times these days?

Soundguy · 03-01-2007, 11:29 AM

I agree.. If i ask how many hp a tractor is, an unqualified question.. I'm expecting a belt or engine hp number back, unless I get a qualifier like '' it is 34 pto hp.. or 34 drawbar hp.. etc..

Seems pretty normal to me. To the original poster.. if you wanted to know how many pto hp it was up front.. why didn't you ask that first??? Sounds like you were just looking for something to be disatisfied about IMHO????

Soundguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by rback33

OK, I'll chime in here. I'll agree the guys answers we pathetic for sure, BUT as far I know when people talk "how many horses"... they are generally asking about engine and the follow with "and to the PTO?" This really makes sense because not ALL tractors come with a PTO. Many of you may not run into this, but out here in the high HP ag world of Kansas it's normal. Most companies (compacts especially) work the HP into the model somehow. I have always taken model number to be plus or minus to the engine HP. Where the Rep. really went off the deep end was on the Nebraska comment. Especially since you can go to the NE site and read the report on the tractor. It tested HIGHER than the 60 PTO he stated... 63 and some change to be more exact. I think you response caught him off guard and he lost control of his thoughts and mouth. I am pretty sure you can buy that tractor in Nebraska. Other areas may be different but around here if you ask for HP you will get the engine HP as your answer, almost with out excpetion.

Farmwithjunk · 03-01-2007, 03:21 PM

Since tractors hit the farm, the farmer wanted to know 2 things. How many plows will it pull? And how many belt/pto hp? Not much interest in plowing these days, but the PTO hp is still a number of great interest. I think a great deal of the confusion IS intentional from the manufacturers. They know everyone LOVES to grab on to whatever hp number is the biggest as if that makes the tractor bigger.

rback33 · 03-01-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundguy

I agree.. If i ask how many hp a tractor is, an unqualified question.. I'm expecting a belt or engine hp number back, unless I get a qualifier like '' it is 34 pto hp.. or 34 drawbar hp.. etc..

Seems pretty normal to me. To the original poster.. if you wanted to know how many pto hp it was up front.. why didn't you ask that first??? Sounds like you were just looking for something to be disatisfied about IMHO????

Soundguy

That was my take as well. It seemed to me the original poster was kinda picking a fight and setting the guy up to fail. As I have mentioned in other threads, I have done the same thing. Not to come a way saying that someone is an ignorant, but rather to help them see that they need to be educated and informed and not make rash judgements. Again this is my view from the peanut gallery and my eyes aren't the greatest....

Soundguy · 03-01-2007, 05:11 PM

I do agree.. however.. since pto hp will be based on eng hp, ( some percentage of it ).. then it is reasonable to presume that 2 tractors in a similar line, using a similar transmission will have similarly related pto hp to eng hp.

In other words.. if tractor a is 80 eng and 72 pto... and tractor b is 60 eng at 54 pto.. then even if the manufacture markets them only showing belt hp.. then the user can still get an idea of pto hp with a quick rule of thumb...

I got no care about the numbers a manufacture sticks on it's models, as long as the facts are available.

Now.. that said.. i do aprpeciate it when a manufacturer uses a model numbering system to denote similar tractors in a class.. as for instance ford and FNH did with the thousand series tractors.. 5000 / 5600 / 5610 / 5610II 5610S etc, and the other similar models10 ,15 20 25 and 30 series.. etc..

Kinda lets you konw about class of frame, hp basics and features offered on those model lines.. etc..

Soundguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmwithjunk

Since tractors hit the farm, the farmer wanted to know 2 things. How many plows will it pull? And how many belt/pto hp? Not much interest in plowing these days, but the PTO hp is still a number of great interest. I think a great deal of the confusion IS intentional from the manufacturers. They know everyone LOVES to grab on to whatever hp number is the biggest as if that makes the tractor bigger.

Farmwithjunk · 03-01-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundguy

I do agree.. however.. since pto hp will be based on eng hp, ( some percentage of it ).. then it is reasonable to presume that 2 tractors in a similar line, using a similar transmission will have similarly related pto hp to eng hp.

In other words.. if tractor a is 80 eng and 72 pto... and tractor b is 60 eng at 54 pto.. then even if the manufacture markets them only showing belt hp.. then the user can still get an idea of pto hp with a quick rule of thumb...

I got no care about the numbers a manufacture sticks on it's models, as long as the facts are available.

Now.. that said.. i do aprpeciate it when a manufacturer uses a model numbering system to denote similar tractors in a class.. as for instance ford and FNH did with the thousand series tractors.. 5000 / 5600 / 5610 / 5610II 5610S etc, and the other similar models10 ,15 20 25 and 30 series.. etc..

Kinda lets you konw about class of frame, hp basics and features offered on those model lines.. etc..

Soundguy

Once upon a time, the majority of tractors were sold to people who more than likely made a living with it. That buyer was very familiar with each model and brand.

Today's manufacturer sells to a different crowd. Some of todays buyers never sat on a tractor until they buy their first one. I'm thinking there's a certain amount of "smoke and mirrors" sales strategy aimed primarily at that crowd.

wkpoor · 03-01-2007, 08:05 PM

I think I must qualify something here. And first off I'm pro any brand. I own or have owned several different brands. I brought this up because in looking at the newer stuff I started to realize Manufacture A for example may call a particular tractor 75HP and B MFG call his 60HP and then come to find out they are really the same size and power machine. It a marketing game. JD won't even publish an engine HP and even asked my dealer and he didn't have any literature to tell me what is was. All my older stuff has only PTO and power to the ground. I used to assume PTO was engine but thats a new game also. Now I find out probably because of people like myself asking questions, brochures say in fine print " as tested by XXXX". Whatever happened to independant testing?

02-27-2007, 01:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
wkpoor Gold Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Amanda, OH Posts: 269	Tractor Comparisons and HP I was at the Louisville show a couple of weeks ago. I was looking at all the new stuff and asked a few questions here and there. It seems to me the manufactures are playing some marketing games just like they did 100yrs ago. I was looking at a new TN75. I asked they guy if that meant 75HP. He said yes it did. I then asked is that the PTO HP or engine. He said engine, the PTO is 60HP. I then said, then its really a 60HP tractor. I thought the standard rating was on the PTO or the power to the ground, not engine by itself. What ever happened to the Nebraska test?? He replied we don't intend to sell in Nebraska. So basically we can call a tractor whatever we like since no indepenant testing was done to confirm anything, its whatever you like. Makes direct comparisons a little tricky. And since I walked around and looked at them one right after another I got real dissatisfied with what I saw. Engine power is all over the spectrum and PTO power can be almost 20HP less than the acclaimed engine HP. Makes me wonder how one brand stacks up against the other. Of coarse if there really was that many brands to start with. There were alot of similarites once you looked beyond the paint and stickers and fiberglass.

02-27-2007, 01:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Z-Michigan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Central Lower Michigan Posts: 1,483	Re: Tractor Comparisons and HP Sounds like the rep was an idiot. And last I checked New Holland sold in Nebraska and had their stuff tested for sale there. One reason I really like the NE tractor tests (and comparable OECD tests performed in other countries) is because it cuts through all the claims and tells you some basic, but really important, information. It also gives you fuel usage information that the manufacturers don't even make claims about.

02-27-2007, 05:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
rback33 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,275	Re: Tractor Comparisons and HP OK, I'll chime in here. I'll agree the guys answers we pathetic for sure, BUT as far I know when people talk "how many horses"... they are generally asking about engine and the follow with "and to the PTO?" This really makes sense because not ALL tractors come with a PTO. Many of you may not run into this, but out here in the high HP ag world of Kansas it's normal. Most companies (compacts especially) work the HP into the model somehow. I have always taken model number to be plus or minus to the engine HP. Where the Rep. really went off the deep end was on the Nebraska comment. Especially since you can go to the NE site and read the report on the tractor. It tested HIGHER than the 60 PTO he stated... 63 and some change to be more exact. I think you response caught him off guard and he lost control of his thoughts and mouth. I am pretty sure you can buy that tractor in Nebraska. Other areas may be different but around here if you ask for HP you will get the engine HP as your answer, almost with out excpetion.

02-27-2007, 07:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Agro-oti Bronze Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Quinte Area of Ontario Posts: 68	Re: Tractor Comparisons and HP What must be remembered about HP ratings these days,is that we are in a global market. North America is only a part of where tractors are sold. PTO hp is not all that important in other parts of the world like it is here. Confusing sometimes,yes but what is'nt at times these days? __________________ Kerby Tractor Kioti/Deutz-Fahr/Gehl Stirling,Ontario

03-01-2007, 03:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
Farmwithjunk Super Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mt Washington, Kentucky Posts: 5,547	Re: Tractor Comparisons and HP Since tractors hit the farm, the farmer wanted to know 2 things. How many plows will it pull? And how many belt/pto hp? Not much interest in plowing these days, but the PTO hp is still a number of great interest. I think a great deal of the confusion IS intentional from the manufacturers. They know everyone LOVES to grab on to whatever hp number is the biggest as if that makes the tractor bigger. __________________ There are three kinds of men; 1.) The ones that learn by reading 2.) The few who learn by observation 3.) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

03-01-2007, 08:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
wkpoor Gold Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Amanda, OH Posts: 269	Re: Tractor Comparisons and HP I think I must qualify something here. And first off I'm pro any brand. I own or have owned several different brands. I brought this up because in looking at the newer stuff I started to realize Manufacture A for example may call a particular tractor 75HP and B MFG call his 60HP and then come to find out they are really the same size and power machine. It a marketing game. JD won't even publish an engine HP and even asked my dealer and he didn't have any literature to tell me what is was. All my older stuff has only PTO and power to the ground. I used to assume PTO was engine but thats a new game also. Now I find out probably because of people like myself asking questions, brochures say in fine print " as tested by XXXX". Whatever happened to independant testing?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode