Narrowing my tractor choices

   / Narrowing my tractor choices #1  

Highsmith

Bronze Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
87
Location
Kingsbury, TX
Tractor
Kubota L2350DT, BCS 853
I've been reading on this forum for several days and learned a lot. I now know the difference between a 3 point hitch and a PTO. I was able to ask some reasonable questions when I visited the dealers. Thanks for the good information.

Here is my scenario:

500+ acres in South Central Texas. About 1/3 open for fields, the rest covered in mesquite. The terrain is pretty flat with the exception of a creek and some gulleys. The soil is sandy/red clay. Perimeter fenced for cattle, very little cross-fencing. I plan on using the tractor to

  • Move small round bales of hay
  • I will NOT grow my own hay
  • Raise meat goats and steers
  • Mow along fence rows to prepare for fence upgrades
  • A lot of post hole digging
  • 5 acres for garden and cash crop watermelons and pumpkins, (this could increase to 10-20 acres, but that is years down the road)
  • Loader work to move 60 years of junk, i.e., half buried appliances, 2 old homesites
  • Maintain drives across the acreage
  • Clear small mesquites
  • Explore the dark side of the moon

Implements that I think I will need (but what do I know?):

  • Loader
  • Rough cut mower
  • Auger
  • Bale spear
  • Box blade
  • Tiller
  • Chipper/Shredder
  • Wheel weights

Dealers all in the same town 24 miles away: Massey Ferguson, New Holland, FarmTrac, John Deere, Kubota, and Case. I will visit these dealers and check with locals to determine if a tractor could be exempted from consideration due to a poor dealer reputation. I want to stick with the major brands due to my lack of experience with repairs. Also I am concerned about parts availability 10-20 years down the road. I would love to be convinced that brands such as Kioti or Mahindra are worthy of my trust, but the price would have to be significantly lower for me to take that risk.

The dealers I have talked to seem to get stuck on the 500 acres. Note: I will not farm the 500 acres, it will be used for livestock.

Based on what I've read here and my three dealer visits (MF/NH, Kubota, Kioti), the following is what I think will work for me. Please tear my list apart if you feel I am way off base.

  • 45-55 HP engine, 42-47 PTO HP
  • Live or Independent PTO
  • 2wd
  • A heavier tractor due to loader work and 2wd
  • I don't think I need 4wd as my grandfather farmed this land his whole life with a 2wd JD, but no loader work

Here are the models I have picked to choose from. I think these fall under the category of "Value".

  • Massey Ferguson 533 or 543
  • New Holland TT60A
  • FarmTrac 555
  • JD 5103 or 5105
  • Kubota M4800, M4900, M5000su
  • Case JX60


Here is a question. Why the significant hitch lift differences? For example MF 533 is 2045, MF 543 is 2711 but JD 5103 is 5067. How much do I need to value this feature? (I got these numbers from various manufacturer websites, I hope they are accurate.)

Things of little value to me (but could come to regret???) Note, my wife does not plan to drive the tractor.
  • Fancy schmancy hydraulics
  • Fancy, schmancy transmissions
  • Fancy, schmancy digital displays
  • Financing options (this will be a cash deal)
  • Saving a few thousand. I don't mind spending more if I am confident it is a wise decision.

One of the most valuable things I learned here was that there is a price jump from 6' to 7' implements. So I would like to stay on the 5'-6' side of things. Please note that this will be a full-time, rest-of-my-life venture. I don't need to worry about enough HP to get things done fast, also I don't mind renting or hiring out big jobs like tank/pond maintenance, BH work or haying.

A big concern I have is mesquite tree thorns. Can I put small R1's on the front of a 2wd for added puncture protection? There are so many other things I am ignorant about, such as the value of an extra PTO, remote hydraulics, loader capacity, value of hitch lift capacity, gallons per hour, etc.

My wife and kids are very excited about the direction our life is headed. I will be laid off from a semiconductor company in November. I am glad to have the option of returning to a farm. The right tractor will be essential to helping us make a good transition.


Best Regards,
Highsmith
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #2  
Wow, that's a pretty big life change. Congrats!

I don't know your area of Texas at all, but on a map it appears to be east of San Antonio and south of Austin. I'm guessing that is fairly dry but gets a number of heavy thunderstorms throughout the year. Let me know if I'm right or wrong.

First, if mud or deep sand is an issue, I think you will be much happier with 4wd. It does add to the price, but it makes an enormous difference in mud. My JD 5105 with 4wd and R1 (ag) tires gets so much traction in mud that I was amazed when I nearly got my 4wd Jeep Liberty, in 4wd, stuck in a part of my driveway that the tractor had no problem with while doing heavy work! Just one example. Certainly most things can be done with 2wd, but I think 4wd would be money well spent. I would change this if you tell me that your area is bone dry and you don't have any sand on the property.

I think the tractors you list are in the right ballpark, but you need to do tons of reading here and of manufacturer's brochures, and visit all the dealers twice and drive as many tractors as possible. It is hard not to get stuck on the amount of land you have. Just mowing fences could take weeks with too small a tractor.

I have had a JD 5105 for two weeks now and am very happy with it. The 5103 is also good but is more of a budget model and differs a bit in features, though in 2wd versions the differences are small. I would look at the JD 5x25 series also. The NH TT60 is definitely work a look if you decide 2wd is for you. I personally think that JD is top notch from the 5xxx series and larger, but that has been endlessly debated here. IMHO I would stay away from Mahindra for your use, and while I generally am impressed by Kioti for your long-term plans I would stick with one of the longest established brands.
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #3  
4wheel drive is a nice option if it is in your budget .If was going to get a 2 wheel drive i would compare the front axle rating when adding a front loader on the various manufacture's listed.Also hp is cheaper to buy upfront and the first time with that many acres .I have a TC55DA 270TL loader and like it just fine .
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #4  
I would never consider a tractor without 4WD, you may not need it today or next week, but you will, and if you need it it's a blessing to have. It's not a luxury item, it's a tool.
Thorns in tires, I get them seems like every day here- mesquite and gate Palm thorns, no tire is immune from flats with these spears, the only thing is to fill them with the worlds best tire sealant made. I use
Ultraseal 1-gal. Bulletproof Grade Tire Sealant | Gemplers
Try and buy bigger, better than you need, that will prevent you from doing what a lot of us have done, buy just what we need, then find out we need to purchase another tractor to get what you REALLY need. This way you will only buy once.
Gallons per hour - who cares, you need the tractor and the tractor needs fuel, period.
And lastly, you may want to think outside the box. Do you really need a tractor, or will a skid steer be better with the many, many optional attachments - depending on how you will develop the land. If your not tilling, or cutting fields, then perhaps a skid steer is order? Who knows, but it's worth a look at.
Finally if budget is a concern hit the auctions, you can buy more for less. Tractors are sold more by condition/hours that by year.
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #5  
Highsmith said:
Explore the dark side of the moon

Implements that I think I will need (but what do I know?):
  • Loader
  • Rough cut mower
  • Auger
  • Bale spear
  • Box blade
  • Tiller
  • Chipper/Shredder
  • Wheel weights
Highsmith

First item would need a fish bowl helmet, NASA diaper, and a road trip :D

Attachment list I'd add quik tach pallet forks to let the tractor move materials and not your back, along with a grapple of sorts to pick up & move brush & mesquite without getting off the tractor. This will require hydraulic ports either on the loader valve or I'm cheap & run lines off the existing rear ports (SCV)

Bigger question is the heat & humidity - a cab is spendy but AC highly recommended.

I won't split hairs on tractor picks but see if you can get heavy 10-14 ply industrial tires on the config to reduce thorn damage. They are also typically much wider but short sidewall vs ag's so the tractor will sit lower & be less fatigueing climbing on/off during post hole work. Getting hung up on stumps may not be an issue for your area.
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #6  
I'd still consider 4 wheel drive. You would never regret the decision and it is amazing how much more pulling a 4wd unit will do over an equally size 2wd unit.

I'd also consider a grapple for the FEL bucket. It would be really handy for grabbing big bunches of branches and stumps as well as moving partial bales around.

For augers I would consider a hydraulic unit that attaches to the side of your FEL bucket, not a 3PT unit. Here's why:
- You can place the auger more precisly with it on your FEL than with a 3pt.
- It is in front of you where you can see it. Safer and easier on your back and neck.
- Power down with the FEL. Gravity down with the 3pt unless you buy a unit with power down.
- Higher lift with the FEL. This could be handy when replacing old fence posts in and around obstacles.

Sounds like a nice piece of property you have there. Best of luck with your tractor and implement decisions. :)
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #7  
Kendall69 said:
Gallons per hour - who cares, you need the tractor and the tractor needs fuel, period.

I disagree... it was a factor in my purchase. My 50hp JD 5105 burns less fuel at full power than many compacts with less power, and more than a gallon/hour less than many tractors in the same size and hp class. If you're using it a lot, and if you expect diesel prices to climb at least with the rate of inflation if not more, then I think the savings add up over time. Let's say you use your tractor 300 hours a year and pay $3 a gallon for gas - going from least efficient to most efficient in the 50hp class would save you more than $900 a year.

All the JD utilities have good fuel consumption, but the 5105 and 5205 are the best, and probably the most efficient tractors below 100hp. Compare the fuel consumption on a NH TC55 for a real surprise. All these figures for most major brands except Kubota are available at the website of the Nebraska tractor test laboratory, which I definitely recommend you browse.
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #8  
I think you are on the right track
I think for a rest of your life, with some reasonable amount of work, i would go with a smaller utility over a bigger compact. Look at the two back to back and you'll see a utility is a MUCH bigger stronger tractor, designed to work for 1000's of hours. (and they weigh much more too). This will probably put you into Cat 2 implements (6 to 7') but over time, that cost will pay for itself.

compacts are deisgned to work 100-200 hours per year for 10 to 20 years and the implements are cheaper, but wear out faster. utilities are designed to work a 500 to 1000 hours per year for 20+ years. it's a big difference.
Just go to any dealer, have them put them side by side and walk around back and see the guts of the tractor (the rear diff and the PTO) and you'll see the size difference.

The costs are very similar, but you really want to go utility.
I agree with everyone else, you want 4wd. No one ever wishes they had 2wd when they bought 4wd, but they do wish teh other way. A 4wd is much more efficient, esp. with the loader. You can run it in 2wd most of the time and only use 4wd when you need it. The cost isn't excessive.

I'd get a canopy rather than a cab. A cab adds a lot of cost and some weight, the canopy is only about $500, but makes a big difference on heat.
Get a quick attach bucket/FEL, gives you more options.

Again, you say you are buying for the next 20 years, so you want to buy something that gives you options and will last. an extra 5000 bucks over 20 years is 250 a year, big deal, but having to go purchase another tractor in a year or two because you bought too small is a problem. BTW, there are lots of options in used implements, esp in Cat 2, auctions, etc. not as many cat 1 implements, because they tend to get used up.

BTW, i agree with a gear choice, i would suggest at least a 12x3 gears. 8x8 isn't enough, you'll find yourself looking for a gear that doesn't exist. (BTDT, won't do it again)
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices #9  
I'll agree with most of what LoneCowboy said, but not all. By all means go Ag Utility and not Compact. I would say minimum 50 pto hp, and possibly more. Eventually, with that much property, you are going to need/want the hp. I could see you with a 75 pto hp tractor now, with plans to add a 30-35hp unit somewhere down the road. You said the dealer gets stuck on the 500 acres. There is a reason for that; he knows that somewhere down the road you are going to need the hp. You may not think so now, but you will eventully need it. I would suggest that a good implement to add to your list would be a chisel plow. I'm talking about a real chisel plow, not one of the little spring-tooth units you see at the roadside tractor places with a couple of 8N's and a line of Japanese grey markets for sale. You can do amazing things with a chisel, it is a fine implement for pulling up roots, bricks, old appliances, and just generally getting land ready to put in pasture. A good one is just about indestructable. Points cost some money, but they are reversable, and you could probably get by with one set for a few years based on what you say you want to do. It takes some horsepower to handle one, though. I have a 7-shank MF high clearance unit, and I figure I need minimum 65 hp at the drawbar to handle it in my soil. The chisel is an item to look for at an auction. If a bigger one, say 9 shank or 11 shank is a bargain, you can always take shanks off till you get it sized down to what you need.

All I can say about 4wd vs. 2wd is "Here we go again." I have farmed for 40 years. I figure I have at least 10,000 hours with my hind end on a tractor seat, and really probably closer to 20,000 hours. I have plowed, harrowed, planted, dug peanuts, pulled peanut combines, baled hay, cut hay, stacked hay, pulled stuck trucks out of ditches, sprayed peaches, pulled loaded peach/peanut/watermelon wagons out of wet fields, and even went to school on a tractor a couple of times in my youth. I have owned both 4wd and 2wd tractors. Unless you are going to be doing extensive loader work, I mean 200 plus hours a year loading lime or fertilizer, or cleaning out chicken houses day after day, or something similar, you don't need 4wd. If you are going to pull a 20 foot disk harrow 200 hours a year, you need 4wd. If you are going to pull an 11 shank chisel to get your 500 acres ready to plant cotton, you would benefit greatly from 4wd. For general utility farm use, it just isn't necessary. I would go so far as to say it isn't even desirable in all cases. I know, heresy! When I used 4wd tractors cleaning up an old fence line, or going through "unknown territory," I always worried about getting old wire or something caught in the front driveline. When I happened to be in the shop of a fairly big dealer a few weeks back, I noticed that at least half the tractors being worked on had some front drive component opened up with the guts on the floor. In 40 years, I recall being stuck four times. Each time, I was in a field I knew had wet spots in it, and the bottom just fell out from under me. Wouldn't have made any difference if I had 4wd. I just don't know where all the talk about 2wd tractors being so easy to stick came from. Lack of technique on the operater's part, I guess.

Transmissions. My very favorite bigger utility ever (76hp) had a 24X24 transmission. I actually used about four gears, and one of them was a road gear. The old standby 8X2 gear trans. is certainly sufficient, much cheaper, and usually bulletproof.

If you are going to be baling hay in 100+ degrees, get a cab. I have almost suffered heat stroke twice doing that on a canopied tractor. If you can sort of work around the hot weather, a canopy is sufficient and I actually prefer it.

Go with at least 7 foot implements, larger if you can afford them. You are eventually going to want to mow a good bit of that 500 acres, even if it is just for livestock, and you can cover 20 or 30 acres a whole lot quicker with a 12 ft. batwing than with a 6 footer. There again, you need horsepower to handle it. Get a 10 or 12 foot disc. You will need it, believe me. Get at least one set, and preferebly two sets of remote hydraulic outlets. You will need them for the batwing and the disc. Go with the best quality you can afford on those two implements. Soundguy had a good thread on one of the forums a while back about restoring a used batwing mower. Don't shy away from auctions. You can find good used equipment, including tractors, for a fraction of what new would cost.

Summary. You need horsepower worse than you need 4wd, a fancy transmission, or a cab. In your case I would say minimum 50 hp, max 85hp. Look for bargains on used tractors and implements. Find some farmer who is retiring, or somebody who did what you are doing a few years ago, and now has decided that isn't really what he wanted to do. You don't have to buy a new tractor. You can save thousands and thousands of dollars buying used. I have said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but you stand much more of a chance of getting stuck real bad with a used car than with a used tractor. I'll use Soundguy as an example again. Go back and read some of his posts about his 7610s Ford (or NH, I forget which) That is the tractor I would be looking for if I were you. Rock hard solid steel and horsepower. There is no substitute for it. I'm partial to Ford/NH. I'm sure there are similar tractors in other brands.
 
   / Narrowing my tractor choices
  • Thread Starter
#10  
The area is dry most of the time, not enough regular rain that I need to worry about mud much.

I would consider a used tractor if it had low hours and some remaining warranty. A local dealer here has a Kubota M4800 for $10k. I don't know the hours nor is there a loader.

I want to stay with a reliable, known manufacturer. Where does Farmtrac rank? They are not in the Big 4. But does that mean they are in the same category as Branson or Lenar? Or perhaps somewhere in-between?

Can someone suggest a reasonable price to pay for a Massey Ferguson 533 or 543? I have found price ranges for the other tractors on my list, but not much for the MFs.

Thanks to all of you for your insights.
 
 
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