Opinion between two tractors

[Farmwithjunk]

"Anyone who claims used 2wds are "a dime a dozen", well, I'd like to order a dozen from them.... Here's my dime! Now where's that dozen tractors?"

Opps, I think I struck a nerve!

Now, here's why I wrote that:
When I was looking for a tractor to replace my 670 with a higher HP machine, I did my research online (but I did hit a few dealers or various brands within about 30 miles). My target model was a newer Deere 770 although I wasn't married to thar choice. i wanted something that would handle a chipper (never bought the chipper though).
I found a lot of 770's, mostly in the South East US. Most were 2WD machines. The MFWD machines were considerably higher in price. Same thing applied to 790's when I looked for them...New Holland too. I didn't look for any used Kubotas (no reason why, but didn't) or full sized Utility tractors since I've no need for a UT.
Now, I didn't record any of these searches...once I saw a machine was 2WD, I moved on.

Since this forum deals more with CUT's rather then their larger bretheren, I can't comment on full sized UT's.

OK?
Anyway, read my signature line below...

No, it didn't "strike a nerve", more like tickled my funnybone! Again, you pay more initially, and get back a percentage. You pay LESS for a 2wd, and get back same or simular percentage, making 2wd vs. 4wd value a wash, NOT an advantage to 4wd.

 

[jcmseven]

I am not sure I agree with Farm on this one. He is an astute farm equipment person for sure, but I feel the four wheel drive will sell better and hold value better. The ease of selling a MFWD machine in 2007 is much greater than that of a 2wd machine, on average. Of course, where one lives has a role also. In my area, you could almost not give a 2wd machine away. In my previous locale they sell poorly, but they sell. My dealer friend says he sits on the 2wd new machines sometimes three or four times longer than the MFWD machines, and they bring less--i.e. have to be marked down more. So, if we are looking at holding value and ease of sale when the time comes, MFWD is the choice in my mind.

John M

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I am not sure I agree with Farm on this one. He is an astute farm equipment person for sure, but I feel the four wheel drive will sell better and hold value better. The ease of selling a MFWD machine in 2007 is much greater than that of a 2wd machine, on average. Of course, where one lives has a role also. In my area, you could almost not give a 2wd machine away. In my previous locale they sell poorly, but they sell. My dealer friend says he sits on the 2wd new machines sometimes three or four times longer than the MFWD machines, and they bring less--i.e. have to be marked down more. So, if we are looking at holding value and ease of sale when the time comes, MFWD is the choice in my mind.

John M

Again, if you all feel the need to give away 2wds, PLEASE, let me know where you live, 'cause they sell like hotcakes everywhere I've ever been. I'd like to get ahold of these free and/or "dime a dozen" 2wds.

Sure 2wds sell for less. And that makes 'em all the better as far as I'm concerned.

In all the instances I know of, 2wds seem to sell for MORE than original purchase price a few years after they're on the job, where I keep getting statements indicating how much less than original price folks are getting out of many 4wds. Hmmmmm Must be some of that "fuzzy math" again.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

For the record, I have never stated that a 4wd/mfwd tractor wasn't at an advantage compared to a 2wd of equal hp and weight in drawbar pulling ability, working in extreme muddy conditions, or in hard loader work. This thread is about which one holds the best return on investment.

Some brands have better return than others. Some brands drop off like a lead balloon, be it 2wd or 4wd. Models with-in a brand vary as to their "worth". There are no absolutes in the comparison. No across the board answer.

I owned one mfwd 110 hp tractor some years back. My son and I just recently bought another MFWD Deere, 90 hp. They have a purpose. MOST people who buy mfwd tractors nowdays don't HAVE to have one. They are a toy, luxury item, or "status symbols" as much as anything for some. For 75 years or more, the SAME EXACT JOBS as performed by the lions share of todays small 4wds were done with 2wd utility tractors that were the compacts of their day. A tractor is a tractor is a tractor. A rose by any other name is still a rose. It doesn't matter if you name it a "compact" a "sub-compact" a "utility", or any other name. They're still the same thing, just small, medium and large.

I made a living with my tractors, farming for 35 years. Right now we are starting up a contract mowing business using 3 older tractors and one new model that happens to be the previously mentioned 90 hp MFWD. The trio of 2wds are at no disadvantage for being 2wds. If it's too muddy to be mowing, we don't mow.

I keep getting the explaination that paying 25% to 30% or more for a 4wd is a better investment because they burn a few dollars less fuel when plowing.....from guys who cut their grass with them. Or how much better they do in deep mud and snow from a guy who tills his garden in southern California. Or.... well, you get the point. They will do more pound for pound, but will they ever justify the expense in a business sense? Probably not in most cases. Most of the rationalizations people give don't directly apply to them. They're attemping to justify their buying a more expensive tractor than the absolutely HAD to have. In the end, they don't need to justify to me, or anyone else, their reasons for buying what they bought. If you want it and can afford it, BUY IT!

2wds still sell. They sell real well. I buy and sell used tractors whenever I have the opportunity to land a bargain and make a buck. I sell 2wds as fast as I can find them. 4wds are hot these days. Dealers love to sell what they make the most profit on. They'll push 4wds. People who own a 4wd will argue their merits. But in the end, they aren't any better OR WORSE of an investment than a good buy on a 2wd, "just because they're 4wd".

When I hear the stories about how you just can't do certain jobs with a 2wd, I can't help but laugh at the storyteller. I've owned a tractor since I was 13 years old. That was 47 years ago. I can account for over 15,000 hours in the operators seat on tractors I've owned. This ain't my first rodeo. No, you can't drag a 5 ton log through a swamp with a 4000lb 2wd tractor..... So I go around the swamp. I live in hilly, rocky country with slick clay soil. I managed most of my life to do what needs to be done with 2wds. I fed cattle in snowy muddy wintertime. I cleared wooded ground and turned it into hayfields with 2wds. I plowed my crop ground every year with 2wds. The difference between 2wd and 4wd isn't as wide of a gap as a lot of people imagine. In many cases, the gap isn't even there.

If you can afford a 4wd, more power to ya! Farmers who use them probably see more benifit than the average hobby farmer/weekend warrior/homeowner. But that doesn't make them an automatic "better investment" for us either.

It's going to take a lot better arguement than anyone has mustered so far to change the reality that 4wds aren't automatically a better investment just because they cost more. That's pure and simple ridiculous.

 

[john_bud]

Interesting thread and a unique topic - 2wd vs 4wd.

 

[RoyJackson]

"It's going to take a lot better arguement than anyone has mustered so far to change the reality that 4wds aren't automatically a better investment just because they cost more. That's pure and simple ridiculous."

I wouldn't even try to argue the point.
I just know...well, my opinion anyway, is that the two CUT's I've owned and the CUT's owned my acquaintances couldn't do some of the work we do without MFWD. Actually...reckon that isn't an opinion...that's a fact. Expanding that to all other CUT's would be an opinion or supposition on my part.

Now, I'm talking Compact Utility Tractors...not the full size machines with well over 50 HP and weigh...probably 3 to 4 tons. Farmer, you know these relatively small and lightweight machines just don't have too much traction...4WD can be a necessity (although I know 8N's, Farmalls could be the equivalent equipment from the 30's, 40's through the 60's) just as 4WD in road vehicles can be a necessity (when's the last time you put chains on your car or truck tires for snow? I'm 57 and I've never used tire chains). And I'd wager few of the older "compact" tractors had loaders installed.

Bottom line...most TBNer's aren't professional farmers (good thing too...we'd starve) or construction equipment operators. Me, I'm a Quality Engineer...mostly administration and process controls. If you look at profiles (and I frequently do), you'll find Engineers, Lawyers, technicians...mostly non-agricultural trades and professions.

I don't think most folks on TBN look at any tractor as an investment...I sure don't! Now, status symbol...yep, no doubt in my military mind a lot of folks do have them as status symbols, for better or worse.

I don't use MFWD too much, but when I do, it's essential. You keep equipment around...if one of your 2WD tractors get stuck, you get another one to tow it out. We residential operators don't often have that option (I've a wife a a 4WD Ranger if I ever get stuck).

Read the signature line again...it's down there below my name...

 

[RoyJackson]

Interesting thread and a unique topic - 2wd vs 4wd.

Yeah...first time I've ever read any discussion on this...

 

[Kendall69]

..You have just quoted ONE INSTANCE where you have "proof"

No, actually I have a couple of dozen "instances" , like I said in my post, I had many over 24 people that asked "is it four wheel drive" , then the next response was "great I'll be right out to look at it" That told me if it was not 4WD, the next sound I would hear would be a dial tone.

Perhaps I did lose money, but that's strictly my fault because I have never ever owned anything but land, that has actually gone up in value.

Now as far as "losing money" I'm happy as a pig in slop, I got what I got, and I'll take a "loss" of 4k for eight years of use all day long, in fact I'd welcome the same exact loss eight years from now - heck I'll even throw in a free tank of $12.00 Diesel fuel to boot.

Oh, and the wet grass, next time I'm on a golf course and a tractor can't make it up a small hill with turf tires because it's 2WD, I'll send you a video.

 

[RoyJackson]

...
I would never buy a tractor that isn't 4WD, I've seen trucks and tractors get stuck in wet grass, without 4WD. I rented a tractor for my property when I first got it, and drove 50ft, from the delivery truck and it got stuck in sand, I told the guy load it back up and get it out of here.

Believe me, 4WD doesn't do so hot on wet grass either.

 

[Spiffy]

Re-reading the original post, the choice sounds easier than after two pages!

Will the smaller machine help in any tight places [I think mentioned earlier too]?

If not, I'd opt for the larger machine, and get things done faster or with less abuse to the tractor for the same size implements [hey, doesn't less abuse improve re-sale!].