Cold starting problem (3 cylinder diesel)

[shorthairtwin]

I am looking at buying my first tractor. I am considering a International 2400B Utility. The tractor has a 3 cylinder diesel motor and the owner has to give it a shot of ether in order to cold start it. After using ether it will start right up just fine and can be started again without ether when it is warm. I don't see any glow plugs on the tractor and the owner said some diesel tractors don't have glow plugs. He also said the tractor might be missing a heater box that went on the air intake (that might have had a glow plug in it).

I can't help but think a diesel motor would need to have some kind of cold weather starting assistance. Does anyone have any ideas on this? I have attached a few pictures.

 

[Barry Bowen]

Glow plugs are so common on the smaller diesels so that the compression can be lowered hence easier to crank over. When the compression gets up into the 16:1 you do not need glow plugs to get the engine started as the compression will heat the air sufficiently to ignite the fuel when injected.

If the tractor is missing a heater grid, which sounds highly unlikely, then fixing that would solve the problem other than the damage done by the ether for how many years???? Maybe some one else who is familiar with this engine can comment there.

Generally speaking, you do a little damage to the motor every time you use ether. The stuff burns so hot that it burns the oil out of the cylinder walls for a short while. There is more wear, the compression lowers, now the engine starts needing more ether, and starts needing it at warmer air temps. If the tractor has a spot to put a very very small amount of ether directly in the intake manifold right infront of the valves, you will use way less as you just give it a momentary hit and it goes quickly through engine. Basically I mean an ether injection system. Spraying in the air filter or such, you use LOTS more and really work on burning the oil out of the cylinder walls

If a diesel is tight it should have no problems starting as low as thirty or even the mid twenties with out aids if it turns over fast enough. I have a 301A JD, below 40 needs block heater or ether, and a 1066 IH the will start unassisted down to almost 20. The JD is getting a little tired.

As to this tractor, it sounds like the motor is on the tired side. It may last for a while, or for a long while, or may need rebuilt as of now. You may be able to nurse the tractor along for many years or have to rebuild tomorrow. If you buy it, just know this and work accordingly

 

[shorthairtwin]

Hi Barry

Thanks for your time and the advice. It has been in the 40's here is South Dakota and was about 45 degrees when the owner used ether to start it.

Would glow plugs typically be located close to the injectors? In the attached pictures I do see what I am sure are the fuel injectors on top of the engine. I also see the injection pump on the side of the engine with the lines going to the injectors.

Do you know where the heater grid would typically be located? Or send a picture of what one looks like?

The owner actually never used the tractor, he has a side job of going around and buying equipment from auctions and selling right off his acreage. I feel this guy is being genuinely honest with me and I think he is just unfamiliar with this tractor (like me). It is possible the ether has only been used over the last couple weeks since he has had it.

I can always stop by and take a few more pictures of the engine and post them if you think that might help.

 

[Barry Bowen]

I looked up your tractor on the Case,IH site. By the process of elimination your tractor had neither glow plugs or heater grid. It came from the factor with an ether injection system. Insidious actually, it makes it way tooooo easy to use, and then you need an overhaul much sooner than you would other wise. I could not find the engine parts page on CaseIH site, but did find the tractor on Tractor Data.com. The engine had 16;1 compression so it had no need for either glow plugs or heater grid. Using ether for just a few weeks would not cause the problem you are seeing with it. If the tractor is really cheap, and you can buy it figuring a motor at some time, it may be okay. BUT, if it is full price for what is supposed to be a great working tractor, WALK AWAY! At 45 the tractor should fire up NO PROBLEM.

 

[shorthairtwin]

Hi Barry

It took a lot of phone calls but I finally found a service center that had some knowledge about this type of tractor. The info you found is 100% correct. In addition, the 3 cylinder diesel was European and discontinued around 30 years ago. I think a guy would have a real hard time finding parts when that engine goes out. This tractor is supposed to be the utility version of the International 464. You could possibly swap out the engine with a AG version but I would have to research if everything bolts up the same.

I think I will take your advice and consider this tractor to be on the tired side. It does have another issue with the 3pt lift arms so I would have to offer a price too low for him take.

I do appreciate the time you put in and getting back to me so quickly!!

The search for my 1st tractor continues

 

[HydroTek]

That is a D179(3cyl) engine, a smaller brother to the D239(4cyl) and D358(6cyl). The engine was made the Neuss Germany engine plant. These engines were used in a number of applications for International Harvester.

You can use two different compression ratio pistons in this engine series, depending on which is installed ..you may need a "shot" of ether to start at <40 degrees. I always use the higher compression parts on these engines and it will start without ether >20 degrees.

There is a factory device for the intake manifold called a thermo-start ..basically a glow plug with a fuel line connected that makes a fire in the intake. Also you can use an external pump type heater to "warm" the engine in cold weather.

Injection pump, injector and compression health are important in any engine to "git'er runnin" Check your pic of the injection pump, look at the lever for the "kill" cable and see the spring loaded device to the right ..this is an "over fuel" position to aid in starting.
.

 

[Stanley75]

Any time you see a nail used as a retainer clip on an injection pump it would make you wonder what else was monkey rigged and not fixed properly.

 

[shorthairtwin]

Any time you see a nail used as a retainer clip on an injection pump it would make you wonder what else was monkey rigged and not fixed properly.

Good eye, I didn't even see that

 

[shorthairtwin]

That is a D179(3cyl) engine, a smaller brother to the D239(4cyl) and D358(6cyl). The engine was made the Neuss Germany engine plant. These engines were used in a number of applications for International Harvester.

You can use two different compression ratio pistons in this engine series, depending on which is installed ..you may need a "shot" of ether to start at <40 degrees. I always use the higher compression parts on these engines and it will start without ether >20 degrees.

There is a factory device for the intake manifold called a thermo-start ..basically a glow plug with a fuel line connected that makes a fire in the intake. Also you can use an external pump type heater to "warm" the engine in cold weather.

Injection pump, injector and compression health are important in any engine to "git'er runnin" Check your pic of the injection pump, look at the lever for the "kill" cable and see the spring loaded device to the right ..this is an "over fuel" position to aid in starting.
.

I ended up walking away from this because of issues that need to be fixed and the owner is very hard to contact. It has still been 10-15 degrees below normal here (around 45+ degrees) so I think he is going to have a hard time selling this when people see that ether can. I did talk to a service center that has knowledge of the ether injector/thermo-start for this model of tractor and he said he hasn't sold one in 20 years. This tractor just doesn't sound reliable enough for me to use in the winter.

Thanks for the info!!