IH 464 hydraulic troubles

[284 International]

I've got an IH 464 that started giving me some trouble this morning. The hydraulic system for the lift and remote valves has largely quit working. I still have power steering. If I try to lift the three point, nothing really happens. The remote valves don't do anything either. I hear a groaning squeal, like when a pump is cavitating, although it may be a bypass. It's not a new noise, though. The lift worked last night, so nothing major has changed in the course of 12 hours, except it got very cold for around here, and still is fairly chilly. The fluid level is full and clear (actually a smidgen overfilled.) The hydraulically controlled PTO works.

How many filters and/or screens are on this? Is there a priority valve somewhere for the steering that may be stuck or something? Thanks for the help.

 

[J_J]

Did it get cold enough to freeze?

If your hyd fluid had any water in it, it cold freeze and cause troubles.

Have you removed and clean the screens?

 

[284 International]

No, it didn't freeze. It's just been in the low 40s during the day, mid 30s overnight, rather than 80 in the day and 65 at night. I haven't pulled the filter and screen yet; I'm waiting for a new filter to arrive (tomorrow at Napa) so I can replace it while I've got it apart. I just don't know how many filters, screens, or other places to check.

The fluid looks clear and not milky or discolored at all.

 

[284 International]

I forgot to update this thread with my outcome from a couple weeks back. I pulled the hydraulic filter cover. There is a pickup screen along with a paper element filter. The screen was occluded by a film of gunk, even though the fluid looks new. I replaced the filter, cleaned the screen well, and now everything works fine. The filter is available through Napa or a dealer.

I still don't know if there are other filters or screens, but these two resolved my problem.

 

[cyrush]

No other routine service filters or screens in hydraulic system , but there is aplastic screen on transmission lubrication system top up pump. This usually only needs aclean at transmission strip down's.???

What oil are you using ???

 

[284 International]

I don't know what fluid is in it currently, but when I topped off I used my Hy-Tran compatible fluid from one of the suppliers. I don't recall offhand, but it's a IH Hy-tran, JD 303 etc compatible fluid.

Thanks for the feedback. Is the plastic screen something that should be serviced on this 40 year old machine?

 

[cyrush]

As an ex IH & Case IH man i am sceptical about so called hytran equivalent fluids !!

IH & Case Have offered all Manufacturers a test by ASTMS, American Society of Testing & Materials, to prove equivalency of their fluids, and as far as i know to date no fluids have been tested so any so called equivalency is only the manufacturers say so and not Proven!!!


This may be why you had the slimy covering on the strainer and filter, causing blockage to oil flow and mal performance of the hydraulic system ???

See article on Hy Tran Oil.



Hy-Tran Oil.

This was developed in the mid 1960ç—´ by IH engineering @ Hinsdale, Illinois to meet the future(Then) needs of IH tractor transmissions and hydraulic systems, particularly the hydrostatic Drive they were developing.


The oil consists of a base specification stock oil which was supplied by any of the approved blenders around the world, to which was added an additive package designed by IH and supplied only by viscosity Oils? (A division of Tenneco, owners of Case, at the time!!).


The colour of the blended oil will vary with where in the world it is supplied from, for instance in U/K the blender was Daltons of Belper (now FUCHS lubricants) and the oil had a reddish hue, In France I believe the blender was Elf and the oil had a smoky blue tinge. Oil colour is determined by the colour of the blenders stock oil.

To help the oil carry out its EP function most oils use Zinc-dialkyl-dithio-phosphate (ZDDP) as the additive, whereas the EP additive used in Hy-Tran is a more expensive æ’¤hosphate Ester based mineral.

One of the main functions of Hy-Tran and its derivatives is its capability to hold water in suspension so that it does not cause damage to sensitive valves (from memory the figure is 6% by volume). This also helps the anti foaming qualities of the oil as well.

Over a period of operating hours in hot and cold climates and periods when equipment is not operated, condensation can form in reservoirs and transmission cases and this will form water droplets that can collect in the bottom of transmission cases and inside precision valves. Assume then that we now have some water in our transmission and the oil we are using has ZDDP as the EP additive. At the boundary between the water droplets and the oil a chemical reaction occurs which forms highly corrosive acid products that are circulated through the systems at next use. If these products get into a control vale and stay there for a while, corrosion then valve malfunction can occur. Phosphate Ester additive does not have this problem, and due to the oils capability to hold 6% by volume of water in suspension it stops water causing corrosion in the valves.

From the Mid 80,s Case IH engineers came up with Hy-Tran -Plus, this is essentially Hy-Tran with an increased dose of anti Squawk (AS) additive to further reduce brake noise but also reduce Clutch pack lock up noise in power shift transmissions
AS additive is basically a friction modifier and if too much was added the clutch packs when locked up would still slip and / or the brakes would fail to stop the tractor !!!



For cold climates it was found that Hy-Tran was still too viscous (Thick) causing sluggish operation of hydraulic systems so a special Arctic Hy-Tran was made available, same additive package but using a thinner basic stock oil for the blend.

Also important is the level of anti - foaming additives in the oil formulation these allow air trapped within the oil to dissipate quickly when the oil returns to reservoir and stop oil loss out of reservoir breathers, a factor a lot of will fit aftermarket oils do not have.


An interesting observation :-

IH & Case have offered any oil supplier who makes an oil that is an equivalent to the various HY Tran formulations over the years to have the oil tested by the Independent ASTM, American Society of Testing & Materials to verify its true equivalency.
To date as far as i know no one has had the test done so there is no independent verification of the aftermarket oil suppliers claims.


Whist the above comments specifically were written covering IH and Case practices in Europe all comments on additives apply worldwide.

At the end of the day you pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[alchemy]

Given the fact that I am a petroleum chemist I will say that you could say oil is oil and go from there. There will be different vicosities, minor additives, flash points, boiling points and so on. There are no real tricks or monopolies on natural petroleum based products. Formulation people always want to make it seem that way for their sales.
Now, having said that, the wrong viscosity alone, for example, can and will make a difference in hydraulic application.
But again, that is no real trick, if you had a viscometer you could just use cheap thin oil and add thick gear oil to it to make it the viscosity you need and then sell it as some great "unsurpassed formula."
Not that you could make it in small volume cheaper than they or that it would not be worth it just to buy there already produced material, just taking some of the glamour and mystique out of so called special formulas.

 

[J_J]

My Case 360 manual says I can use ATM or HyTrans.

My 1845 skid steer manual says I can use HyTrans, or 10W-40 motor oil with a qt of Case additive for each 10 qts of the motor oil.

My PowerTrac has been using 10W- 40 motor oil for about 22 years.

Is there really a big difference?

 

[Travis92]

I'm having the same problem with my 464! When I start it, it works after that nothing! But I still have the steering! I new to this so if someone could tell me where my filter and screen is I would appreciate it!