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  1. #21
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by arrow View Post
    I can't believe they are color coding saw chain. Just where is the color?
    Been that way a long time with Stihl. Green and yellow tie strap link.
    Don
    Kubota L3750 Hydro Shuttle, 4wd, FEL; L3800 Gear drive, 4wd, FEL
    Husqvarna XP chainsaws 346xp X3, 357xp, 562xp, 359

  2. #22
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegill2 View Post
    Showing your ignorance again bud. You've never run a good 50-60cc saw!

    Just joking. I do have a 570/w28" bar though. Not an XP

  3. #23
    Bronze Member ghenges's Avatar
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    Dear s219,

    Very much appreciate your respectful, well reasoned and experienced reply.
    You are indeed an intelligent and articulate man.
    It is the kind of reply that this forum unfortunately has been rather economical with.

    My intention in making the post was educational.
    I reasoned perhaps others that had purchased these "anti-kickback" chainsaws might not know that a more aggressive chain was available.
    Old Geezers like me grew up in a time of few choices, we are not conditioned to search out all the options.
    Today IMO there are too damnmany choices. I'm so stuck in the past that I drink just plain scalding hot black coffee, wouldn't know how to order any thing else if my life depended on it

    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    There's really nothing radical about that chain -- plunge cutting is the only thing it will do better than the equivalent green chain
    Have been cutting hickory, locust and osage orange, the kickback when attempting a plunge cut is fierce, perhaps a somewhat softer wood like a white ash or wild cherry won't kick as hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    You will find that full chisel (the "S") chain dulls much quicker ......... so be sure to file it often, especially if cutting dirty wood or bucking on the ground.
    Exclusively ran full chisel chains back in the 70's post Arab oil crisis era, never actually knew the formal name for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post
    For anyone wondering, if you only cut along the length of the bar and never plunge/bore (as would be typical for most firewood cutters and homeowners) you will never notice the difference between green and yellow chain, so you may as well go green and get a little extra safety margin.
    I respectfully disagree that the green chain cuts as well cutting along the length of the bar.
    The first thing I diid with this chain was to bear down like I had to do with the green chain to achieve the best engine load. Quickly discovered it doesn't need to be crowded.
    This chain needs just a very light touch, it will cut as good as the green chain with just the weight of the bar. A very light crowding will bring the engine into its most efficient power band.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckmotor View Post
    Ghenges,
    What model saw are you running that chain on? If you told us, I missed it.
    Stihl MS250 with an 18" bar.
    Yea, it's a little light in theass, but for cutting just 8 cords a year from trees that rarely are over 18' diameter, it's perhaps a toy to the pseudo Paul Bunyans, but it's all the saw I need.
    If I could just remember to drain this crapass methanol gasoline before the saw sits for an extended period of time, probably wouldn't have any maintenance issues.

    Isn't it a crime how much equipment has been destroyed by the government decree to add methanol to gasoline. Made the small engine repair shops happy though.
    Years ago, I'm talking 1940's -1950's dinosaur era, we specifically purchased Amoco White Gas (93 Octane) for all our small engines.
    You could leave that gasoline in an engine tank for a year (or more) and the engine would start like the last day you used it. The old Wisconsin baler motors were ornery starters, the Amoco gas kept the plugs cleaner than any other fuel. When it comes to gasoline -- the 'good old days' were definitely better.
    I remember pulling up to the Sunoco "Dial A Grade" pump in my black 1963 409 c.i. Impala SS and cranking the dial full hard over to 260 grade, that '09' ran like a stripedassed ape on it. I see the buck toothed kids screaming by in their hopped up riceburners and feel sorry for them, they haven't a clue what a real piece of USA iron was like. Actually had to epoxy the knobs onto the radio, acceleration jump from the shift from first to second would pull the knobs off.
    You have to go to NASCAR today to get a glimpse of what it was like in the early 60's before the government and the insurance companies began penalizing the big iron.
    "I know the end of humanity is near when my tractor comes with a place to store and plug in a cell phone, but no tool box" -- God's Country

  4. #24
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Soda View Post
    Just joking. I do have a 570/w28" bar though. Not an XP
    I actually agree with you. My comment was to case245. I just happened to cal him 'bud'.
    Don
    Kubota L3750 Hydro Shuttle, 4wd, FEL; L3800 Gear drive, 4wd, FEL
    Husqvarna XP chainsaws 346xp X3, 357xp, 562xp, 359

  5. #25
    Elite Member s219's Avatar
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    Quote Originally Posted by ghenges View Post
    Have been cutting hickory, locust and osage orange, the kickback when attempting a plunge cut is fierce, perhaps a somewhat softer wood like a white ash or wild cherry won't kick as hard.
    What you're noticing is that the tip can actually cut on the yellow chain, unlike green where the safety rakers pop out as the chain goes around the tip and prevent the cutters from biting the wood.

    If you plunge carefully with the attack side of the tip, the yellow chain will bore right in (where in comparison, the green would do very little). On the other hand, if you touch the wrong part of the tip on the wood or are too tentative plunging, the yellow chain will wheelie right back at you hard (where in comparison, green would be much more benign).

    So what you are noticing as "kick" is actually the proper behavior for the yellow chain, and is the main reason most non-experts use green.


    I respectfully disagree that the green chain cuts as well cutting along the length of the bar.
    The first thing I diid with this chain was to bear down like I had to do with the green chain to achieve the best engine load. Quickly discovered it doesn't need to be crowded.
    This chain needs just a very light touch, it will cut as good as the green chain with just the weight of the bar. A very light crowding will bring the engine into its most efficient power band.
    Sounds to me like your green chain is dull or needs the depth rakers filed. I will bet dollars to donuts that a sharp green and yellow chain (all specs equal, rakers properly filed) will cut the same along the length of the bar. You can compare the chains carefully and see why -- along the length of the bar, the safety rakers on the green chain do not protrude above the depth rakers, so the cutters (which are identical for green and yellow chains of the same type) will fully engage to the limit of the depth rakers. The safety rakers only go into effect as the chain rounds the tip of the bar, where the curvature makes them "pop" out and override the depth rakers. Examine green/yellow chains side by side and you will see all of this and it will make sense.

    I don't mean to harp on this, but there is a ton of confusion between cutter types, depth rakers, safety rakers, green/yellow, etc, not to mention many people cut with dull chains or chains in need of depth raker adjustment. So I think it's important for anyone flirting with a yellow chain to know exactly what they're getting into. Honestly, unless you need to plunge/bore and know exactly how to do it, you will be much safer with a green chain. If you do need to plunge/bore, yellow is the way to go, and technique is very important -- there should *not* be any kickback if you are doing it right.

  6. #26
    Veteran Member xring100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s219 View Post

    What you're noticing is that the tip can actually cut on the yellow chain, unlike green where the safety rakers pop out as the chain goes around the tip and prevent the cutters from biting the wood.

    If you plunge carefully with the attack side of the tip, the yellow chain will bore right in (where in comparison, the green would do very little). On the other hand, if you touch the wrong part of the tip on the wood or are too tentative plunging, the yellow chain will wheelie right back at you hard (where in comparison, green would be much more benign).

    So what you are noticing as "kick" is actually the proper behavior for the yellow chain, and is the main reason most non-experts use green.

    Sounds to me like your green chain is dull or needs the depth rakers filed. I will bet dollars to donuts that a sharp green and yellow chain (all specs equal, rakers properly filed) will cut the same along the length of the bar. You can compare the chains carefully and see why -- along the length of the bar, the safety rakers on the green chain do not protrude above the depth rakers, so the cutters (which are identical for green and yellow chains of the same type) will fully engage to the limit of the depth rakers. The safety rakers only go into effect as the chain rounds the tip of the bar, where the curvature makes them "pop" out and override the depth rakers. Examine green/yellow chains side by side and you will see all of this and it will make sense.

    I don't mean to harp on this, but there is a ton of confusion between cutter types, depth rakers, safety rakers, green/yellow, etc, not to mention many people cut with dull chains or chains in need of depth raker adjustment. So I think it's important for anyone flirting with a yellow chain to know exactly what they're getting into. Honestly, unless you need to plunge/bore and know exactly how to do it, you will be much safer with a green chain. If you do need to plunge/bore, yellow is the way to go, and technique is very important -- there should *not* be any kickback if you are doing it right.
    Yep most stores that sharpen chains do not adjust the rakers without an extra fee

    Dave

  7. #27
    Bronze Member ghenges's Avatar
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    "So what you are noticing as "kick" is actually the proper behavior for the yellow chain, and is the main reason most non-experts use green".
    I used my old McCullough 10-10 and Homelite Super XL's with the full chisel chains and they never kicked this hard or as easily. To me this Stihl chain has different characteristics than those older chisel chains.
    The cutting performance though is equal to those old chains.
    I like this Stihl chain, it seems to have an ease of cutting that I haven't experienced before.

    Going from the green chain to the yellow, the cutting performance difference was not just somewhat perceptible -- The difference was dramatic.

    "Sounds to me like your green chain is dull or needs the depth rakers filed. I will bet dollars to donuts that a sharp green and yellow chain (all specs equal, rakers properly filed) will cut the same along the length of the bar."
    Again respectfully I disagree.
    New chain to new chain comparison, this new yellow chain cuts dramatically easier than a new green chain.
    I purchased probably 25 the green chains in the past two years as I was eradicating the nuisance Autumn Olive trees over two hundred acres (should have used the bulldozer, but chose cutting for the exercise) by cutting them low to the ground so a sicklebar mower wouldn't snag on the stumps.
    I was always good sharpening a chain, but, no braggadocio intended, I became expert at sharpening subsequent to the Autumn Olive experience.

    I have also cut in excess of 50 cords of hardwood firewood with the green chain, am very familiar with the cutting characteristics
    As I stated previously the green chain requires a fair amount of crowding to put the engine into its power sweet spot.
    The yellow chain requires the very lightest touch to bring the engine into the proper power output.
    Its a rough estimate but I would say the yellow chain cuts through a log one third faster than the green, and, with far less effort. On e aspect of less crowding factor is that out of position cutting is possible.
    I would equate the difference in performance is not unlike that of using a Hilti hammer drill compared to a Milwaukee (or most any other name brand hammer drill). The Hilti drills without effort, the other hammer drills have to be forced to drill.
    "I know the end of humanity is near when my tractor comes with a place to store and plug in a cell phone, but no tool box" -- God's Country

  8. #28
    Veteran Member xring100's Avatar
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    Ghenges are your green tooth chains semi chisel. Your yellow chain is a full chisel these definitely cut faster than semi chisel while they are sharp. They just tend to dull Dull faster as they rely on the very tip of the chisel to be a sharp point.

    Most green chains are semi chisel and yellow are full chisel at least that's what they tend to carry around here.

    Dave

  9. #29
    Platinum Member xyz123's Avatar
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    RSC3 PS3 is full round chisel chain with green
    REDNECK Chainsaw Repair

  10. #30
    Elite Member s219's Avatar
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    Default Re: STIHL --A MORE AGGRESSIVE CHAIN

    ghenges, if you bought a MS-250, that is a homeowner saw and comes with a green semi-chisel chain (RM3). You'd have to know to ask special to get a green full-chisel for that saw, and based on the thread, I don't think you did. So this is not an apples-to-apples comparison, which is a common mistake. Your new yellow chain is full chisel (RS). Your old green chain is semi-chisel (RM). People compare green and yellow with no idea that there are all sorts of different cutter types, and that is an entirely different factor. As we mentioned earlier, you can get both RS and RM in green or yellow. The color won't impact anything but plunge/bore performance.

    Like I said, until the chain rotates around the tip of the bar, a green chain and a yellow chain will perform identically. The only difference in a green chain is when the safety rakers pop out, and that only happens when the chain turns the radius at the bar tip. I won't argue this further, but I will post a couple photos to illustrate the point for anyone who doesn't have both chains to compare.

    First, here is a shot showing the cutter of a green RS chain (top) and a yellow RS chain (bottom).



    As you can see, the cutters are identical (except the top one has been filed many times and the bottom is new). I drew an arrow showing both the vector of movement, and also how the depth of cut is set by the raker at the front of the cutter. You can see the safety hump in the background and see that it is both below and behind the depth raker, so it will not affect the cut at all.

    Now here's a shot as the green chain rounds the bar tip. Note how the safety raker pops out in front of the depth raker, and you can see the vector here is altered because of that.



    That is what makes a green chain resistant to kick-back but also poor at plunging. It basically acts like it has an extra big raker when turning around the tip, and the raker is farther out in front to cast more of a shadow that blanks out the cutter.

    I won't belabor this point anymore, but I will tell you that you're falling into the trap of not understanding what makes different chains behave and perform differently, and this is exactly why the lawyers get involved and people have to sign waivers to buy certain chains. Your dealer really should have taken the time to explain all this to you, and sent you home with a green full-chisel chain (RS3). That would have done what you wanted in terms of improved cutting performance, not kicked back severely at the tip, and kept you safer.

    The main downside to full-chisel, regardless of whether it's yellow or green, is that it will dull much faster, so you will get to a point where it actually cuts much worse than semi-chisel until sharpened. Plan to sharpen often to maintain the improved cutting performance. And please take the time to study your chains and understand the mechanics before diving in, otherwise at some point we may have to change your username to "stumpy" . Be careful with that yellow chain, as it can bite and turn on you in a heartbeat.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails -screen-shot-2013-03-01-a   -screen-shot-2013-03-01-a  

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