Foton 254 starting problem

[succor]

Hey everyone, haven't been on here in a while. Foton 254 has been running good till lately. About a week ago was moving alot of snow on a warm day, shut the tractor off, it got really cold now about -20 F or - 35 up here in Saskatchewan canada. I went to start the tractor to move more snow, plugged in for a while with glow plugs so good to go but only a click from the starter. I thought maybe water from the warm day froze the starter, so I put some warm water slowly around the cast of the starter, gave it a couple of wraps, waited an than it started but a slower crank because of cold weather. A couple of days later, same thing, but no start. The best I can get is like a clicking grinding noise from the starter. It sounds like the solenoid is firing but with this grinding noise? The problem is that it is darn cold here to work on it but thinking maybe I should pull that starter off? I've heard of problems with the clutch switch but it seems to be working when I push the clutch in. When it's out there is nothing to the starter. I tried the screwdriver on starter trick but it sparks, that's it. I go across the big terminal on the solenoid to the little terminal on the starter it that's correct. I know in the summer I fixed up the ground from the battery to the frame as well. However lights do dim and voltage drops down to 9 or 10 volts when trying so that may be a possibility? Any thoughts would be great as this forum is great!

Cory

 

[RonMar]

Could be a battery, batteries don't do as well in the cold, and you are talking pretty low temps. Large terminal to small terminal with a screwdriver does the same as the key does, engages the solenoid, which closes contacts and sends high current to the starter motor to turn it. Large terminal to large terminal bypasses the solenoid and sends high current right to the starter motor.

What is the voltage at the battery terminals after you start it, and with engine at say 1800RPM? What is it under these same conditions with the lights turned on? These things have a puny alternator. If you are not runining it much, and have the lights all on, it may not be putting enough energy back into the battery in your cold climate. Quick checks would be to put the battery on a charger for a while before you try and start it, or jumpstart the tractor from a running vehicle... If it starts Ok when you do these things, the battery or charging system is most likley at fault. If not, then starter and wiring would be suspect.

 

[succor]

Thanks for the input, just giving an update. Did the jump across the 2 big terminals and it's the starter which gave me that whirring/ rattle noise so I took it out and have it apart, other than dirt, grease and a bit of ice, nothing looks broken. I'll clean it up and try again. As for the alternator, it's a new OEM one because my original failed. I looked at a delco alternator and it doesn't look like it will directly fit in there but with mods I could do this. As for the battery, yeh, on my larger tractor (backup) I can easily swap batteries to ease the starting. I can't get the battery out with a loader on with this tractor. I'm going to put the charger on and I may assist with the boost function as well to start. The output is small in this cold weather.

Cory

 

[succor]

Ok everyone, got the starter apart cleaned up and back together. Had a spare battery and jump started the started and it spins fine. Although it's not back in the tractor yet, I'm 99% sure I fixed it. The plunger in the solenoid was frozen solid with water because alot leaked out as it was thawing. At first it didn't move, now it does. I'm sealing up all the joints as I put it back together because water can easily seep into the solenoid area and starter to happily freeze! I haven't tested the solenoid yet but I will try that as well to make sure it's moving freely.

Cory

 

[RonMar]

The chinese "Yak Fat" they use for grease is probably also like concrete below freezing putting some better grease in there will also probably work wonders.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Lubri-Plate white grease is less prone to moisture emulsification.

I guess I should qualify my post.

Use Lubri-Plate on starter motor bearings and solenoid linkage.
Use a dry lubricant on the solenoid plunger such as Moly-Kote or graphite such as Lock-Eze, mostly because we all know what happens to grease when it gets cold and we also know that grease attracts dust and dirt - like a magnet.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I am with the others here and think its a lube issue with the grease they us in the starter.

Chris

 

[greg_g]

But just to rule out a voltage issue, grab a friend and a digital multimeter. Set the multimeter to read DC volts. Place the + lead on the solenoid post to which the wire from the keyswitch is attached. Ground the - lead. At this point, the meter should read zero. Then have a friend crank the engine. Note the voltage. If it's above 10v, you're ok. Between 9-10 volts suggests the beginning of a problem. Below 9v, you need to track down the cause for the voltage loss.

But let's cross that bridge if/when we get to it. First order of business is to verify the starting voltage from the keyswitch.

//greg//

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, The starter is cleaned and lubed properly, tested it with a spare battery on the bench and works fine. Gear is back and forth and spins great. Had to melt a bit of ice on the flywheel as well so the gears can hopefully mesh back up. Next issue is of course is what Greg is mentioning about the small wire on the starter. With this cold weather, I may have broke that wire putting it back on because no click with the key, could also be a weak battery. I'm also charging the battery to get it back up to proper operation. Still minus 20C wind chill -30C, that's around -25F. **** cold!!

 

[succor]

OK, I think I'm doing this right. This is using another good battery. When you jump the starter with the screw driver to bypass the key etc; do you first actuate the solenoid(big nut to small nut on solenoid) than the starter(big nut to big nut) while holding the solenoid on? If so, than the starter seems to be toast even though it checked out on the bench but with no load of course. When I fire the soloid, it's moving. When I power the starter it spins. Only other thing is if the gears were not lining up but with numerous tries it should mesh together. Darn cold weather sure slows down the progress. Worse thing to happen is the starter fails when it's extremely cold and you got to fix the problem outside!