I didn't see the big savings????

[goatman]

I didn\'t see the big savings????

I have wantched e-bay, visited farm-pro, jinma web sites looking for a new 4wd 30ish hp tractor with loader assembled and ready to roll.. seems 25hp ran around $9,300-9,500, the 30hp $11,500-$13,000.. no special finacing.for either size. Just bought a NH TC30 with loader $13, 400 0% - 48 months..Seems the chinese tractors are either getting so popular that they are NO longer 1/3rd-1/2 of thecost of big three or They are pricing them self out of the discount tractor business?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

You are not the first one to post a message like this, a few people have actually found that some of the name brand machines have priced out cheaper than some of the Chinese imports.

The hard part is when people compare a fully featured tractor like a NH TC24 or a Kubota B2410, both of which contain lots of whistles and bells, and then price those against a Jinma. There the Jinma will typically win by a pretty large margin, but it really is not a very fair comparison because the features of the machines don't match up at all.

In the case of a Kubota B7800, a JD 790 or a NH TC30, then I think that the big 3 machines can often compete head on with price, and when 0% financing is factored in, the margins shrink even farther. Then toss in a dealer with a rock solid warrenty and I would typically choose a big 3 machine any day.

Now there are still some bargains out there in the Chinese tractors and when price is the sole issue, they can often, but not always, come in at a lower price.

 

[shvl73]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Comparing an average chinese tractor against a basic gear tractor of the big three & they are usually a 1/3 or more cheaper. Adding the (usually) needed loader of a quality manufacturer & that marging shrinks a whole lot. As Bob stated, 0% financing sure levels the playing field for the average buyer. The issues with electrics, needed fluid change out for some, the lack of a labor warranty, the limited parts warranty & the level of visible craftsmanship made me look elsewhere. Just my opinion, not trying to bash.

 

[SPIKER]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

I haven't checked the prices of NEW jinmas'farmpros ect but when I bought mine the big3 wouldn't come close, and even that price posted above was HIGH compaired to what I paid 2 yrs back. itr may be that SOME of the dealers have upped the price on the china based tractors and that the big 3 saw they were loosing lots of sales becasue of their high price. I priced KUB, DEER & NH all of them were over 16k with FEL in the gear drives back then. I got my jinma with FEL, Hoe and several attachemnts for less than that posted price above but I did do my own assembly in crate form....

perhaps try and price some dealers listed here http://www.johnstractor.homestead.com/ look under dealer links.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[bluechip]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

It is true that if you buy US made attachments, loaders and hoes, the percentage saved will be lowered. You still save the same dollars on the tractor itseslf.

In order to see the "big savings", it is important to compare similar tractors. Too many people are using HP as the only specificaiton to categorize tractors. Weight, gear ratios and, probably most importantly, torque should also be considered.

Not much is said about one area where the Chinese tractor actually excells, that is in torque. Chinese engines are "old school", make their HP at a lower RPM, this means they must make more torque. The TC30 makes 30HP at 2600 rpm, the Chinese 254 makes 25 HP at 2350, peak torque at 1650rpm.

The TC30 and JM or TS254 have the same engine displacement and IMHO, would compare closer to than the 30-35HP series Chiense tractors.

So in Goatman's case, he could have saved over $5,000 buying a Chinese tractor with US made loader with similar capability. If this was financed at 7% for four years, with 20% down, he would pay around $ 1000 in interest, so now he has "only" saved $ 4000.

Now I'm not saying everyone should buy a Chinese tractor, it depends on the use it will receive. So many of the CUTs sold today see only 50- 100 hours a year use. If you use a tractor 400-500 hours a year or more, than perhaps you might ought to invest a little more in your tractor, but there certainly is a big savings available, if the Chinese tractor will suit your needs.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

As long as you are talking about comparing apples to apples on the engine torque, also make sure you compare features such as turf or R4 tires. On a Big 3 machine it is typically no charge to switch from Ags to turfs or R4s. On some of the chinese machines you are forced to buy a new set of wheels and tires and the charge is typically $1000.

On a fair comparision, I think the chinese tractors often come in cheaper, but not always as cheap as people think if they need to make a couple of configuration changes.

Often, people who by Chinese machines seem to be very budget tight, not pressed for time so fixing things is less of an issue, and mechanically better equiped to fix their own problems, it also seems like they make the choice to "just get by" with the features that are standard. I think people who buy the big 3 machines need a little more support and hand holding after the sale, are more inclinded to factor in their personal time as a cost factor, and spec out their machines to do what they need with fewer compramises. Not saying either is better than the other, just 2 different perspectives.

 

[bluechip]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Valid point on the R-4, since most majors buy their tires state side, the savings on the R-1s will usually cover the R-4s, since the Chinese make the R-1s and not the R-4s, there is very little cost savings in deleting the stock chinese R-1 tires, so it is better just to go ahead and take them and then either get R-4s stateside.

ONce the Chinese start building R-4s (if ever), there may not be such a big price difference.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

<font color="blue"> So in Goatman's case, he could have saved over $5,000 buying a Chinese tractor with US made loader with similar capability. If this was financed at 7% for four years, with 20% down, he would pay around $ 1000 in interest, so now he has "only" saved $ 4000.
</font>

Goatman paid $13,300 for the NC TC30 with the loader. There is no way a comparable Jinma with a loader is $5000 cheaper! Comparing a 25hp Jinma at $9500 to a 30hp TC30 is "apparently" $3800 more expensive, at least on the surface.

But there is dealer support for repairs, and personally I want a dealer with both a parts and service department, for me that is worth a lot, but perhaps to put a reasonable number on it, it might be worth 50-cents a day, assuming Goatman keeps the tractor for 10 years, that is roughly $1800 worth to piece of mind.

There is the R4 price differential issue (that is worth about $1000).

And there is that Zero % financing to consider (using your numbers that is $1000 versus a 7% / 48m loan).

If the 25hp Jinma is superficially $3800 less, and the actual savings is really $0.00.

But take a look at the 30hp Jinma, which is posted above at running between $11,500 and $13,000, the "average" price difference between the Chinese 30hp imports and the NH is only 13,300 - $12,250 or $1050.

The price of the R4 tires is going to eat up that differential all by itself.

The savings of of the 0% financing actually makes the New Holland cheaper by $1000.

And that doesn't factor in the 50-cents a day I arbitrarily assigned to "piece of mind" for having a dealer that has both a parts and service department.


I'd have to agree with Goatman . . . I don't see the big savings either.

 

[bluechip]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

I have already conceded on the R-4 tire issue, if you gotta have em, then the scale may tip away from a chinese tractor, at least for now.

I did transpose 13,400 to 14,300 so erred by $ 900. I'm sorry.

The prices Goatman posted on the Chinese tractors are high enough one should expect full service dealer support. Our selling prices are on the low end of both series mentioned and we are a full service dealership, with a significant parts inventory on hand too.

I stand at a (corrected) $ 3200 savings after adjusting for 0% for 48 months. (If we talk cash, I'll bet we come out even better). That plus a sunshade, folding ROPS wheel weights, front suitcase ballast thrown in just for good measure.

As a matter of fact, the TC30 Goatman bought at $ 13,400 seems like a pretty good buy to me too, espcially at 0%, I wonder if that is a typical price for that model with those terms? Or was this a special price from some distant high volume internet dealer? If so, is that dealer worth the same $.50 a day piece of mind?

The Chinese tractors are at bargain prices almost anywhere, everyday.

Goatman asked if Chinese tractor dealers where pricing themselves out of the discount tractor business. I don't think the Chinese tractors have gone up, I think the majors have come down a bit, acknowledging that there is a market for low cost simple tractors. In my opinion, they have not closed the gap just yet.

I will admit that I would be much more likely to put a Kioti LK3054XS or a Farmtrac 270DTC up against the TC30 than I would a Farm Pro/Jinma, If your going to go into the low to mid teens for a tractor with loader, might as well get shuttle shift too, but that is a topic for an entirely different board!

Meanwhile, I guess I'm willing to agree to disagree, that is unless by chance you agree with me. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ive enjoyed the debate, its been fun.
Thanks
Chip

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Blue . . .
In another forum Goatman said he went 340 miles away to get his tractor, but he does have multiple local NH dealers that will honor all warrenty work, and have full parts and service departments. I will agree that SOME of the Chinese dealers have parts and service, but I'm sure you will agree than MANY are sales centers that are hoping to make a quick buck and don't offer extensive parts, and many offer zero service.

He also said that another deciding factor was the trade in value of his old machine. The chinese tractor dealers didn't want to trade and the local dealers offered him lower trade in value. So that became another large factor, if I recall correctly, the dealer that got the sale offered him a trade in credit that was about $1000 more than other dealers. So that is another price factor that made the TC30 even cheaper.

The debate could go on, I think that for many, the Chinese tractors really do work out well. I've never seen all the numbers compared by one person who was shopping before. So I really appreciate the efforts Goatman provided by giving us all his numbers and his rationale for purchasing (via posts in several areas of TBN).