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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Wow... differing opinions!

    I think the JD is identical to the NH machine. They have almost the same lift design -- ... )</font>

    At one point, Deere was buying New Holland Loaders and painting them green. That was a few years ago, now there is no crossover between the two brands. Word on the street is that Deere is going to have a few new models comming out made by mustang.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    I know Deere machines aren't made by NH anymore. I was simply saying that if Deere came out with a new series of loader, hopefully it wouldn't use the same scissors-type lift as NH does. (I was referring to the lift arm designs that were similar looking, not the machines themselves.) And yes they were painting the machines their own color.

    Machines made by Mustang... mmm interesting.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    I am surprised you don't like the scissors-type lift arms. NH is the only company to have that because they patented it. Bob Cat worked hard to come up with a machine that lifted the way a NH does and accomplished it with alot of extra hydrolics that make the machine more expensive. I am not a construction salesmen so I don't know the downsides of the NH design, can you tell me what you don't like?

  4. #24
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    2003 Kubota M9000DTL 2001 JD 2252 Orchard Tractor Cat 216 Skidsteer 1999 JD 450H Dozer 1994 JD 644G wheel loader

    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    I know that just as soon as you start lifting with the NH style arms you loose all side visibility. The arm sections that block visibility are huge and go up first verses a radial lift arm that is smaller and only blocks your view if the arm is very high. The vertical lift CAT skid steers seem simpler than NH, JD or Bobcats vertical lift mechanisms.

    When I was shopping for a skid steer I wanted the vertical lift because much of my work is loading the manure spreader but after trying the NH, JD, and CAT for a couple days on our farm we were won over by the comfort and controls on the CAT. My wife basically decided that we were getting the CAT even if it was more expensive and smaller. We have never regretted this decision. It has been a great tool this last four years.

    Eric

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    Uhoh... I'm making quite an **** of myself (and some enemies maybe!)

    Clarification -- nothing wrong with the NH/Deere lift. I LOVE the NH lift system. I'm jealous of it to ****. I think the NH machines are the best looking machines on the market. They look stable, unlike a Bobcat, which to me looks **** heavy. (Especically vert. lifts.) They don't have massive lift arms (like the Cats) and they don't have frame towers (like everyone cept Thomas and Gehl). I'm just a bigger fan of Bobcat as an all-around machine. Easier servicability, great dealer support, good visibilty, better keel structure, good powertrain, good design, better built. (In my opinion. Some will disagree.)

    Cat is great. Favorite construction equipment company of mine but not fave SSL maker. THeir vert. lift is okay and is good for many purposes; because they don't have boom stops (their boom never touches the machine itself, as do other manufacturers' models), though, I wouldn't rely on them for excessive torqueing movements; eg, digging in heavy ground (clay). I don't know, though -- never tried it out.

    I'll type more when I have some more time.


  6. #26
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    Wylie, Texas
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    JCB165HF

    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    I like Cat too. But for a slightly different reason. They gave me two hundred dollars cash money to sit down and discuss skidsteers with them for one hour.

    I felt like a doctor. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    I've operated the Cat and will admit it does have power and traction.

    But I have a JCB and love it. Especially that door. I do use the door.

    I've used Bobcat and don't like the foot pedals for nothing. I"ve got on a Case 1845 once and found it quite comfortable. Would love to try out a 95 XT.

    But if the ship came in right now and the port survived I'd have a JCB 1110T with Case controls.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    Okay. I have about twenty minutes to type my heart out. And I'm not doing this for money, W. Harv (hehe). (You make me jealous, though; I've been giving one company my input for years!)

    Here goes.

    ASV -- great line of products at (now) a resonable price. Their old machines were likely great mud machines, but were ugly, not great lifting machines, and the cab was antiquidated (spelling on that). The new models -- the "R" series -- is great. They claim their machines are about as costly as a comparably-sized SSL (wheeled), and I don't doubt it. They have absolutely come a long way in the making since their inception long ago. Perhaps their strongest point is the feature that distinguishes them from every other maker of compact track loaders -- their suspended undercarriage (okay, so Cat uses theirs, too). The suspended undercarriage is like a giant shock-absorber (sponge) that will take the jarring motion out of the conventional, rock-solid undercarriages of other manufacturers. (There is a video of a Bobcat T200 vs. a Cat 267 or 277, and the difference in operator bouncing is immediate and extremely noticable.) Weaker points -- I haven't heard anything of the reliability of ASV. They do not have any vertical lift machines. No wheeled machines to complement track machines.

    Bobcat: bias aside, I think they make the best overall skid steer loader. Perhaps not the highest in every category, but definitely a fine, fine machine that is capable of long hours even in harsh conditions. The first skid steer loader and therefore most experience (but that doesn't necessarily mean anything). I might not consider Bobcat for every single job, but for a general contractor who wants a reliable, solid machine, I would not hesitate to recommend Bobcat. They are usually lighter than comparable models from other makes -- the S300 is nearly 1000 lbs lighter than the 95XT, for example -- which makes them easier to haul and move (to rooftops or below grade, if that's your boat). Their vertical lift system is built heavily -- unlike their old 873 model, the new S250/S300/A300/T300 loader arms are extremely durable. They'll last a lifetime, as will the skid steer itself. I'm not sure the Bobcats are always the best performers, but they have unbeatable access to the engine, the best cooling system in the industry, a great keel structure that allows for improved mudability, and operator comfort that is nearly unmatched. Don't take these small features for granted -- no one else can quite match everything (EVERYTHING) Bobcat has. Of course, if you don't all that, well, *scratches nose* Yes. Weak points -- machines aren't necessarily as powerful or productive as other manufacturers'. Machines are prone to more new technology than proven technology.

    Case: great line of skid steers. They made great inroads with the 1845 line and learned a lot from that model; from it, they created the XT line. The XTs are extremely productive, are operator friendly, and are all-around great machines. I think the Case vertical lift system is quite ingenious; it rests the boom arms on the machine so that torquing the loader won't affect the boom arms. My complaint about Case is that they're challenging Bobcat's market share and Bobcat isn't doing anything about it. Case makes a great product, but it might not be for everyone. Like me. *beams*

    Cat: Running out of time to type all this, but Cat definitely has the broadest lineup of any company out there. 10 bloody models to choose from and a full lineup of attachments to go with. Great dealer support and great products. That's a damned good combination if you ask me. Their vertical lift line is odd to me -- it is the only line whose lift arms don't rest against the machine frame. Anything above that point, however, and you've got a winner... an excellently-designed lift path and great lift height and dump angle. Too much mass in the back of the machine, perhaps, but eh, isn't everyone's machine like that (OTHER than Gehl Deere NH). Weaknesses --anti-stall feature is NOT for everyone. Bobcat and Case call it the "anti-work" feature because it doesn't allow experienced operators work the machine the way they want to. Other than that, another great product. (Look out for the XPS hyd. hi-flow system, too.)

    Deere: Last one before I gotta get going. A solid line of products that was at one point prone to failure. Deere machines used to be made by NH and it is still possible to see the similiarties -- two boom stops, in-cab boom locks, scissors-lift design, 35 rollback/45 dump, higher lift height, claims of superior weight distribution, operator comfort. They are productive machines, but I'm worried about their use in demolition or other "high risk" areas. Those boom arms -- once they get up, well, they're not connected to anything other than the cab. Other machines are mounted to the frame towers at the rear -- provided more support -- but, eh, I'm worried. Interestingly, problems with Deere SSLs haven't been in the boom, but rather in the powertrain. Oh well. But they are extremely (!) capable lifting machines. And I would hope they would be -- their models are some of the heaviest models made today. The 250 weighs in at nearly 7000 pounds -- just about the weight of a Bobcat 863 (7045), for a machine whose ROC is 400 lbs less. That tells you something about how the Deere is built. No track loader option.

    For now, that's it. I'll resume with JCB and Komatsu and beyond next time.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    Okay, starting again.

    After Deere --

    Gehl -- one of the strongest brand loyalties out there, I would imagine. Gehl product line that is differentiated in many areas. Gehl was one of the first to introduce low-profile booms and capitalize on two-speed travel. They are also one of the only makes currently to use nitro cylinder rods. Bobcat used them on the 773G for a while then must have felt that they wouldn't be cost effective enough. The Gehl 40 series has made improvements in operator comfort and engine power; the 7810 and 7610 (along with their Mustang counterparts) are also the largest available SSL currently. Gehls are rumored to hold up extremely well, and I have extreme respect for this company that is able to build and maintain a reputation and machine that is every bit as capable as any other out there. Weakness -- poor rear visbility, engines run at high speeds, dealer support (as in thin -- not many dealers --, not as in poor).

    JCB. Their line is most obviously differentiated by their mono-boom design. They claim their boom is as strong as other machines', if not stronger, and I don't doubt it. JCB has not made any serious inroads in the US market, but their idea is innovative. The lift height on JCB's larger models is excellent, even clearing the 130" mark. Bucket rollback and dump are also at the top of their classes; JCB boasts a rollback angle of 39 degrees. Weaknesses -- low ground clearance and lower breakout force. I wouldn't consider the JCB to have too poor visbility, even out of the right rear where there is one frame tower. A good machine for most chores, though I wouldn't recommend it for serious excavating or heavy demolition.

    Komatsu: perhaps the newest entrant into the SSL market. A semi-broad lineup of machines; they have many in the &lt;2000 lb ROC range and offer a complement of both vertical and radial lifts. Followed Cat's style with the anti-stall feature, but also introduced some sort of control option that (I believe) presents information on the seat bar. Not sure how it works or what it does, but according to one operator, computers are going to break one day and the operator won't even be able to move the machine (this goes for Bobcat, too). Other than that -- Komatsu is a great company and the skid steers surely reflect lots of thinking. The machine is OPEN -- there isn't any clutter anywhere. The boom arms are low, the hood is low, and there aren't any massive frame towers -- meaning visbility is perhaps unobstructed by moving parts (on, say, Case, the rear frame towers are huge and obstruct lots of visilbity). Weaknesses -- new design and yet unchallenged. Can't say much about them.

    Mustang -- I'll leave out their two biggest models because no one offers anything comparable. The next smallest machine available is the JD 280 -- which rides on a wheelbase that's nearly 7" shorter and lifts about a foot less than the Gehl/Mustage. Their smaller models pack a wallop -- no vertical lift, but radial machines are the first in the industry to offer in-cab boom locks (again, on radial machines). Trmenedous power and torque; don't know about servicability, but the machines are built well. They are the second-oldest manufacturer of SSLs in America (and indeed in the world), and their parent company being Gehl, can invest in new technology well and often. Weaknesses -- lower brand awareness. Product line isn't differentiated -- it's "just a skid steer." (Cat and Bobcat tend to be more plush.)

    New Holland: in my opinion, the sexiest SSL out there. Great looking machine that is stable, lifts well, and is a good all-around machine. I don't think it can outdo Bobcat in performance, but landscapers love them. They are cheap and easy to maintain, and their being stable allows them to lift heavy loads. They might not sell fairly (STEEP discounts!), but the machines they do sell tend to last a long time. Good push power but low engine horsepower. Great visibility, but cab is a bit old fashioned... the controls must take a great amount of effort to move. First pioneer of scissors-lift and in-cab boom locks. Good support. Weakness -- boom arms aren't really that strong (only mounted in one spot -- the cab) and they tend to be noisy due to their hyd. motors.

    Takeuchi -- great machines (also Gehl and Mustang CTL). I haven't seen many around here, but they claim to have superior tractive effort and great visibility. Don't doubt either of them; Takeuchi was one of the first to make a CTL, and they've got plenty of experience. No vertical lift yet and no wheeled models, but their design is robust and their machines have plenty of power. Gehl did choose them, after all, so they've got to have some merit. Weakness -- dealer support.

    Thomas -- great, STRONG line of skid steers. Their machines are built to last. Not the best support in America because they're not that big. They introduced a vertical lift model that looks decent. Thomas also runs its engines very fast. Can't say much more about them.

    Other manufacturers -- Daewoo, Hyundai, Rayco. Most make decent products, just ones that are not overly well-known.

    I think this is a thorough list of manufacturers -- I did that off the top of my head, however, and can't guarantee I got everyone. If I think of anyone else, I'll add them.

    Information here is subject to change.

    Rumors --

    Case will be coming out with a 75XT replacement.
    Deere will be introducing a new line.
    NH should introduce something soon -- their line is getting on 10 years old.
    Bobcat may be looking at another larger loader.




  9. #29
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    I have used 463, S150, and S185 Bobcats. Great machines!

    I have used ASVi RC30 and Cat 247 track loaders, with joysticks. Awesome machines!

    I find a skidsteer can beat the bejeebies out of you. That ASV, and the Cat with ASV suspension, were so smooth to operate! I spent a couple days in each,, and found them soooooo much more comfortable to operate than a skid steer. I liked the Cat with the foot throttle too. At first, I thought waht a waste. After using it, I found it to be pretty cool.

    I have not used the other brands of tracked loaders, so not sure how they compare. If they are suspended, they are probably really comfortable too.
    I rented a Bobcat S150 a couple days ago. Missed the power of the S185 I have used, but it still worked very well. It was my first time using a clamshell; If I ever get another tractor, CUT, Skidsteer, track loader, whatever, it will DEFINITELY have a clamshell on it!
    One thing I found interesting, is check out the Bobcat website, and look at the history. It is really interesting how the skid steer evolved.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Specs on Skid-steers

    They can indeed be pretty rough on the operator. That's why many companies offer ride-control (not so much for operator, but it may help a little bit) and suspension seats. Even so -- not all track machines are created equal; because only the ASV undercarriage is suspended, it'll be the nicest-riding machine out there.

    I still think it's possible for a SSL manufacturer to come out with a durable SSL with suspension... but not expecting one soon.

    PS: Anyone see a NH with tracks (as in a track system, not over the tire tracks) at all? I saw a Ls180 with such a system -- never heard of it before and was wondering who made it.

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