new grapple installation problem

Northland · May 18, 2007

I recently purchased a grapple from Andy Tatro and a WR Long electric valve kit from Carver Equipment. I used the thread below for help with installing the grapple and cut the spaces into the lip of my bucket so the grapple arms can extend down further. I also notched a piece out of the grapple arm, as Mad Ref did, to help in getting the grapple extended - see link

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/79451-tatro-wr-long-grapple-combo.html

I received the 2x6x1.125 cylinder (didn't see Mad Ref's suggestion about the 8" tube being better until after I bought the grapple/cylinder combo) that Andy Tatro had shipped to me from Surplus Center.

My problem is that there is a 11" gap between my toothbar and the grapple-see attached pictures.

Obviously this won't do so, as I see it, my options are as follows:

1-replace the 6" cylinder with a 12"+? cylinder
2-cut further pieces out of the bucket lip so I can get the grapple base plate flush up to the inside edge of the bucket lip. This would require the drilling of new holes into the bucket. If I do this the grapple base plate would move forward 3/4" to the inside lip of the bucket and give further reach.

Any advice would be much appreciated as I don't want to make any further mistakes

shaley · May 18, 2007

Humm, Interesting problem.
Don't cut the bucket any further, the top ridge gets its strength from the formed edge you are cutting.
The grapple is not made to mount on that type/angle of surface.
Consider this:
See the angle iron welded to the bucket on the ends. You will need to fab somethng like that for the grapple base.
Extend the cylinder all the way and hold the grapple front in touch w/the bucket cutting edge and this will be the geomety the base must be mounted at in order for it to function.

KAB · May 18, 2007

Here are a few ideas.

Disconnect the existing cylinder, with the grapple in the closed position, measure center to center cylinder mount. This will give you extended lenght needed. (You probably already figured this out.) Next open the grapple up and measure the distance of the retracted lenght of the grapple to make sure that the opening will be a useable opening and that it does not open beyond center. (not a problem if you are careful.)

I would personally try either of the following:
Try to create a different mounting point to change the angles associated with the grapple. How do the angles look if you set the grapple an angle simular to the mounting of the hooks?

Do you have access to a welder? A change in the cylinder mounting at the bucket might be all you need. (Could be checked by creating a templete and changing the angle of the bucket end mount and start measuring distances.)

I am in the middle of creating my own grapple and I found that a small change in 1 angle creates a lot of difference elsewhere. I was trying to be able to use 1 cylinder for 2 different applications and found that a slight angle change and small distance change could add up to inches elsewhere. (I won't be posting about my grapple until it is completed, sorry.)

Kurt

frenchie4x4 · May 18, 2007

northland I agree with shaley. Take the grapple off and start over weld a heavy piece of angle across the top lip just like where the chain hooks are and mount the grapple there. also as Shaley stated do not cut the bucket lip it will weaken it. Good luck Frenchie.

Northland · May 19, 2007

Guys-thanks for the suggestions. I did figure out, as KAB suggested, that I needed to measure the extended and retracted lengths from pin to pin on the cylinder. Unfortunately, Surplus Center and the actual Chief cylinder web site suggest that the cylinder I have has a retracted length of 16 1/4" when it is actually 18 1/4"!

I am going to do some more figuring and experimentation today but no cutting or drilling. I relearned another good lesson-always lay everything out before you start actually installing anything. I don't understand how at 47 years old I keep doing stupid things

Farwell · May 19, 2007

Northland,
Wait a few years, the stupid things get worse as you get older, you start forgetting all the things you learned from making mistakes the first time.

Northland · May 19, 2007

Looks like you guys were right about adding a strip of angle iron to the top of the bucket.

Today I placed a 1/2" piece of wood under the grapple base mounting plate to give it some additional height but it didn't help the geometry enough as the base was still behind the bucket lip. So, I still had a 11" gap between the grapple and bucket's bottom lip.

I don't have a welder but I am sure I can find someone to weld some the angle iron onto the top lip of the bucket. I figure a piece twice as deep as the angle iron holding my bucket hooks on should do the job nicely.

KAB · May 19, 2007

To help with measuring I used my rear toplink. Marked lines on it and moved the mounting points around until I find the distances that I was looking for. A piece of 1/4 or thicker plywood would help you figure if the cylinder mounting positions are ideal for you setup.

Here are a few of the threads that I reviewed carefully before starting my grapple:
From Pineridge - Read the whole thread... Alot of information
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/48738-question-about-grapple.html
From Ryan03 - Work in progress... You will get the idea of the templetes
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/96910-low-buck-grapple-build.html?
from 3rrl - Look closely at the pics. It should help you envision what the angles should look like.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/84907-tatro-grapples-wr-long-valves.html

Also do a search on ebay for grapples and you will find different cylinder mounting positions.

My CK20HST seems to have a smaller bucket opening than most people are adding grapples onto. I was hoping that 18 - 26.5" top cylinder would fit my bucket. Way to large. Some of my first testing showed that I could have a cylinder with a 3" stroke. By changing mounting position height and angles I probably could have went with a 6" stroke but that would have caused a retracted lenght to be to long for another project that I want a hydraulic cylinder for. With some changes either in mounting position (whole grapple, cylinder mounting or both) you will probably be able to use the cylinder that you have.

Kurt

Timber · May 20, 2007

You might want to send Rob (3rrl) a PM on this. He is very good with this stuff. I don't think he will be around over the weekend though but you never know

Northland · May 21, 2007

Thanks Kurt-that's a good idea to use the top-link as a guide.

Muscling the grapple, it's base and the cylinder into place and trying to figure out how minute changes in the position of the grapple base plate will effect the position and closure of the cylinder is no easy chore...at least for me.

I beleive you are right in your suggestion that my 6" stroke cylinder will do the job after I have welded a piece of angle iron along the top lip of my bucket and mount the grapple base to that.

thanks also for the links- I have read through many of the links on grapples and noted how they are attchaed in various installations.