Woods 1012 FEL mount problem

[philbuilt]

I have a massey 1260 with a woods 1012 FEL. Here lies the problem and possible solutions. The mount is mid and front with a top connecting plate.
Picture (1) will show the bolts that are always loosening themselves. The other line in the pic. shows the movement of the mount when lifting and putting down pressure.
I have thought about welding the plates together but, if for some reason Iwould have to work on the motor it would be nice to remove them.
Picture (2) shows where the monting brackets are breaking at the welds. These bracket are easy to remove and reweld. Who wants to do that more than once?
My thoughts are to add a subframe going to the back of the tractor to make a quike attach for my BH. I hope this would help reduce the wiggle in the FEL mount. See Picture (3)
I did make a removable one that comes off with the BH. My BH is a
Taylor-way 3PT mount. That setup works great but offers no support for the FEL mount.
If any one has had a simular problem I sure would like to know how you fixed yours.
Thanks Phil

 

[JerryG]

I guess I am missing something. On picture two, the platform mount, where is the weight, force etc coming from that is breaking those welds?
One the first picture, the front mount, drill the bolt heads for safety wire.

 

[philbuilt]

JerryG,
The platform mount is whats breaking. The bolts going forward hold the cross-over FEL support mount arms, that is where the load is coming from. I did think about drilling those bolt holes larger and put new bolts in with a tighter fit. perhaps that would remove some of the wiggle.
Phil

 

[JerryG]

Picture 1: I would drill and safety wire the bolt heads. That would take care of the bolts becoming loose. I have actually drilled the nuts and then through the bolts before. I assume that the nuts are welded on the back side.
Picture 2: That may be another problem if the welds have been being burnt in. Are you sure that the welds were burnt in good? If they were, try it again and then weld a a small plate across the weld. Ex. 1/4" x .75 x the length of the bracket. I don't like to do that, but I have.
As far as the rear axle support goes, I think that they all should have them. As more models of loaders have went to mid-mount, the more rear axle supports have showed up.

 

[philbuilt]

Jerry,
Thanks for the input. The nuts are not welded so should I weld them and then safety wire thru the nut? I set up a lazer line and took measurements to layout the new axel supports and rear quick mount for the BH.
Phil

 

[JerryG]

Since the nuts aren't welded, I think that I would weld them first. See if that works first. If it doesn't, then I would drill the bolt heads.

 

[whodat90]

First, and most obvious, have you tried locktite on the bolts? Second, and more to the point. If that bracket is moving, the bolt holes are too big or the torque on the bolts is not high enough. Personally, I'd replace the bolts with new grade 8 shouldered bolts in redrilled/reamed holes to get as tight a fit as possible, and use locktite on them. While I had the chance, I'd disassemble the joints and make absolutely certain that it was absolutely clean; no washers, dirt, oil, etc. Next, I'd run about a 1" bead on the top and bottom of the joint. (blue on the pic) The bolts should be enough to effectively fuse the two pieces, but obviously they aren't so adding a bit of weld at the highest stress locations should add to the rigidity greatly. If you ever need to disassemble it, the weld beads would be easy enough to cut.
To understand the fix, you have to understand the failure. The bolts are loosening because the metal is moving, not the other way around. If you stop the bolts loosening without stopping the metal moving, all you'll do is gall the metal. The bolts shouldn't be used to locate the two pieces together, that's the job of dowels and pins. The bolts are supposed to provide enough clamping force between the two metals that the friction should stop the movement, but for some reason they aren't. Welding won't increase that friction, but will physically fuse the metal together preventing the movement. You're not trying to replace the bolts with the strength of the weld, you're trying to supplement the friction they provide. The failure of the bottom welds is due to the flex they get from the mount above them moving. Eliminate that movement, the bottom welds no longer get flexed. (not to say they don't need to be rewelded, just that unless you stop the flex above they'll keep breaking)
whodat

 

[philbuilt]

First, and most obvious, have you tried locktite on the bolts? Second, and more to the point. If that bracket is moving, the bolt holes are too big or the torque on the bolts is not high enough. Personally, I'd replace the bolts with new grade 8 shouldered bolts in redrilled/reamed holes to get as tight a fit as possible, and use locktite on them. While I had the chance, I'd disassemble the joints and make absolutely certain that it was absolutely clean; no washers, dirt, oil, etc. Next, I'd run about a 1" bead on the top and bottom of the joint. (blue on the pic) The bolts should be enough to effectively fuse the two pieces, but obviously they aren't so adding a bit of weld at the highest stress locations should add to the rigidity greatly. If you ever need to disassemble it, the weld beads would be easy enough to cut.
To understand the fix, you have to understand the failure. The bolts are loosening because the metal is moving, not the other way around. If you stop the bolts loosening without stopping the metal moving, all you'll do is gall the metal. The bolts shouldn't be used to locate the two pieces together, that's the job of dowels and pins. The bolts are supposed to provide enough clamping force between the two metals that the friction should stop the movement, but for some reason they aren't. Welding won't increase that friction, but will physically fuse the metal together preventing the movement. You're not trying to replace the bolts with the strength of the weld, you're trying to supplement the friction they provide. The failure of the bottom welds is due to the flex they get from the mount above them moving. Eliminate that movement, the bottom welds no longer get flexed. (not to say they don't need to be rewelded, just that unless you stop the flex above they'll keep breaking)
whodat

Whodat90
Thank you I thought was simular but, concerned that Woods did not want the unit welded so that it could flex. I was wondering if other members with this same setup is having this problem. I do use the FEL alot and the tractor has 260 hrs. And that doesn't seem to be alot of hours to me.
I am currently designing arms to go to the back of the tractor and make a quick mount for the BH.
Phil

 

[whodat90]

The problem is that the arms would attach at the bottom, right? It's the top that needs to stop moving. Right now the bottom is a fairly rigid mount point, which is why it's cracking the welds. Strengthening that wouldn't stop the top from moving. You have to make the upright and the brace a single non-moving unit rather than a hinge. Look at the lines of force on it:
Loader with a load of rock, pushes back on the bottom of the upright mount, and pulls forward on the top. The bottom is rigidly mounted to the frame, can't move back and forth. This means that all the force is transferred to the top of the upright, pulling it forward. Two scenarios:
The brace is not solidly mounted to the upright: The upright pivots forward, pushing the brace forward slightly. The front of the brace is not designed to stop this kind of movement, so it flexes.

The brace is solidly mounted to the upright: The upright tries to pivot forward, but can't. The force is transferred to the forward end of the brace, in a vertical plane. The forward mount is designed to be very rigid in a vertical plane, so it resists the movement.

 

[philbuilt]

I understand the movement of these uprights. The back and forth wiggle comes from the weight accerted from the fel up and down. So I want to remove some of that by adding the frame going to the back of the tractor. This tube will be welded to the back of the main support arms and gusseted. My neighbor has a NH tractor and doesn't have any upper braces going to the front. The fel mount frame goes to the mid mount and subframe to the back of the tractor. I tried to show this in the pic below. Also all the weight is on those wippy platform mounts. 4 bolts each side attached to a 4"x6"x1/4" with a total of 7" of weld see pic 2 above. I know my new frame will not help with the weight but it will certainly remove the stress on the exsiting welds
Phil