1964 Ford 4000 wont start

[jshaney]

Hello all, I have been having problems with my tractor for about 4 weeks now. I am completely stumped with it. Problem is it wont start. I'll give specs in a minute, but heres what Ive done so far. Coil went south so got a 12V to replace the old 6V, also I replaced the condenser, points inside the distributor, along with the cap and rotor. The condenser and coil seemed to fix this. Once we put a new condenser on it, it fired right up, ran it for about 2 days. Yesterday go to fire it up to start disc'n my field, it starts, runs for about 10 secs, then died. Something thats common with this on a cold start.

Well go to crank it back up, and I just get the click, and nothing happens. Sounds like the push button just makes a connection then nothing. Now I push the button and I get no sound, not even the click as if the battery was too low to start it. Ive tried jumping the battery, even took the battery out of my truck and still nothing. I have been testing all the wiring to make sure its getting voltage. I get power to the solenoid, and power goes to the starting push button as well. BUT, when I turn the key to on, all the voltage goes away, even if I put a test lead on the battery terminal, it registers about 1-2volts and thats it. But turn the key off, and everything to the solenoid goes back to registering 12 volts. I put on a new solenoid and this didn't fix the problem. Is there some sort of short im missing somewhere? I don't know where to go with this. Another odd thing is the lights work sparatically. Sometimes they come on when I pull the nob, sometimes not. Any help will be appreciated.

1964 Ford 4000 4cyl gas
12V coil
alternator
Entire System is at 3.2 ohms of resistance coming out of the coil - Coil is 1.4 ohms, 1 resistor is 1.3, other resistor is .5 ohms. They aren't getting hot or anything when key is on, but they did when the condenser was bad.

 

[Soundguy]

well.. i see a bunch of issues.

1, a 12v coil is NOT 1.4 ohms. it should be 3-3.25 or so. A native 12v coil like a napa ic14sb is all that is needed on a 12v 4000 like you have. If you have a 12v coil.. you don't need the resistors. ( On the other hand.. i am doubting you have a 12v coil.. most people don't understand the lil writing on the side of the coil when it says 'with external resistance'.

2, how are you making your voltage checks. I'm guessing bad meter technique if you say voltage disappears everywhere when you turn the key on. IE. you are measuring 2 common points and seeing no voltage difference.

3, have you measured accross the battery when trying to start?

4, have you checked all battery terminal and cable ends as well as the place the battery grounds at the chassis?

5, when you replaced the solenoid, did you put the correct solenoid on.. one made for that tractor.. not a generic one? generic automotive solenoids will not work with that grounding push button safety start system.

6, if you have a known good battery, try this:

get her to turn over reliably. ie. swap in a charged battery, and make sure your wires from battery to chassis, and battery to solenoid, and thumb switch to solenoid are good, and that you have the correct solenoid. also make sure using an ohm meter that if you disconnect the thumb switch, and check from it's connector to ground that it is open normally, and when you press it, it makes continuity.

once you get her turning over:

jumper from bat hot to the coil primary.

now see if she will start.

 

[jshaney]

Ok. So here we go.

1. Here is my coil. When I measure from + to - on the coil I get a reading of 1.4. I tried to measure from both the + and - to the middle, but I can get a reading.


2. I am doing voltage checks by 1 lead to a hot point, and the other to a ground, usually on the engine block area somewhere. Now, I did check from hot points to the neutral on the battery. Here is where it gets weird to me. Sometimes it would do as I mentioned last post, I get a voltage reading, say to the solenoid or coil even, but when I turn the key it drops/zeros out. BUT, other times it doesn't zero out when the key is turned, I keep the 12v reading. I am using both a grounding point, and the negative side of the battery.
and heres a clearer pic of the solenoid close up.

3. Yes I measured from + to - on the battery and it did as described above, sometimes keeps voltage after key is turned, sometimes drops voltage when key is turned.

4. Yes checked all connections.

5. I did just get one for a car not a tractor, but I did make sure it was a 3 terminal like the old one. NOW, I did put the old solenoid back on, and it is sending 12v to the starter when the push button was pushed, and nothing when I let off. Now the solenoid SOMETIMES makes the clicking noise when I push the button with the key on or off, but sometimes it doesn't make any noise. Now when it doesn't make a noise, it still sends power to the starter when the button is pushed, and stops when I let off the button. Again, this was taking place with the problem I mentioned in 2, where sometimes voltage goes to solenoid/coil/starter after key is on, and sometimes zero voltage when key is on.

6. Cant get it to turn over, but did put the battery out of my car into it, and same results as mentioned above.

Thanks for your help so far Soundguy.

 

[Soundguy]

neutral on the battery? haha battery has + or - polarity.. no neutral. AC has a neutral.

ps.. that's a 6v coil.. not a 12v coil! which is whi it says 'external resistor required! '

I'm still skeptical of your readings.

key on state should have virtually no effect on voltage read at the battery. even if those lil 14awg wires to the key were shorted, the bat voltage should only drop a couple tenths before the wire or switch smoked.. that is, assuming the battery is not stone dead. if it came out of your truck and worked fine. then it's not stone dead. thus i question your meter or your methodology.

 

[jshaney]

I dunno, tried to run a hot straight to starter and it didn't spin or anything, got sparks but that's about it, thinking maybe starter isn't working. Think Im just going to order a new starter, solenoid, coil, and switch, and just stop worrying with all this electrical fubarness. Who ever worked on this tractor previously did a lot of rigging and its been a headache trying to sort it all out.

Thanks for your input Soundguy.

 

[Soundguy]

pull th starter and test first. throwing parts at a situation you have not troubleshot and completely understand the failure mode generally only spends money, and often doesn't correct the problem.. only means you have new parts and an old problem.

ps.. if the starter IS bad.. i'd look into getting it rebuilt vs replaced...

 

[jshaney]

I did pull it, ran hot to the screw on the side, grounded it to itself, nothing. Got lots of sparks and wires got hot, maybe I should ground it differently?

 

[Soundguy]

screw on the side? grounded it to itself?

can you decode that for me?

the starter has a single stud connection on it for electrical connection. hook one post of the battery to that and the other post to the case of the starter. a set of jump cables is good for this..

 

[jshaney]

Yep did that exactly. But more like, clamp - of battery to case on starter, then clamp + of battery then touched the + to the stud on the side of starter. Sparks, no movement

 

[Soundguy]

ps. it's always best to make the last connection at the startercase and not the stud. making the last conenction is where the arc occurs.. the stud is soft copepr and will burn / melt and you have to take the starter apart to replace it.

that said... i think that one needs to come apart anyway.