Air Cooled Engines: Kawasaki vs Kohler

[SnowRidge]

FWIW, the 25HP Kohler in my Power-Trac popped a valve seat at 110 hours. It was repaired under warranty, but during the process I learned a few things about Kohler that disturbed me.

Their warranty has both a time limit and an hours limit. Fair enough, but they cut the time limit in half for commercial use even if the hours limit hasn't been reached. For daily use commercial mowers, it probably doesn't matter, but for occasional farm use it does, as it is possible to pass the time limit before passing the hours limit.

They define farm use as commercial. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Their web site lists authorized repair facilities, but makes no mention that it doesn't list all of them, but only those who paid Kohler to get in the listing. I got this bit of information from a rather angry authorized repair shop.

Their web site also claims something like "Outstanding Support" and provides a toll free support number. Support turns out to be a young lady with a computer who has never worked on an engine in her life, but can look up your 'problem' in the database. If pressed, she will give you the real support number with actual technicians, which is not toll free, IIRC.

The web site has the manuals on line, except the service manual. There is not even an option to buy one.

My Kohler sucks gas like there is no tomorrow. I don't know how much of that is due to the hydraulic drive of the Power-Trac and how much, if any, is due to the engine design.

The full line of Kohler engine parts is available at Napa stores, all of which should have a complete illustrated parts book behind the counter (mine does). This is a very good thing.

If I was buying a piece of equipment today, and I had a choice between Kawasaki and Kohler, I would do some research on Kawasaki engines in general, and the model in particular. If I didn't turn up anything noteworthy, I would buy the Kawasaki equipped version without hesitation.

 

[SonnieP]

We have a Kawasaki 2510 Mule and have had several problems with the engine... still seem to have starting problems constantly. It always takes several minutes to warm up and even then we can go from forward to reverse or vice-versa and it will stall. We have taken it to several different service centers and it will run smooth for a while but then problems again after only a short period. It's been aggravating for 5 years. Fuel relay and pump went out after only 300 hours and was outrageously expensive to repair. Parts are extremely hard to find at reasonable prices... even oil filters are ridiculously priced. We finally found a site online to buy some parts at fairly reasonable prices, but still high. Gas mileage is super good and when it's running right it is a work horse of a mule. Except for the problems we love it... just wish it had a more reliable engine with reasonable parts prices for normal service. If you use the oil they require while under warranty it's like $7 a quart.

Bought a Husqvarna Z mower about 5 years ago with a 25hp Kawasaki and sold the mower after just 15 hours due to such a harsh ride and picked up a Grasshopper with 25hp Kohler. The fellow that bought my Husqv starting having problems with it after 150 hours... low compression and finally had to have it replaced... cost him mega bucks ($1300 just for the engine). Kawasaki rep advised him he needed new engine and later we learned from another Kawasaki tech that it could have been rebuilt for much less money. New engine has been good for him but he has low hours so far. Kawasaki would not warranty the engine... stated dirt ingestion although a certified Kawasaki tech at a service center told them it was caused from dirt ingestion... they claimed from pics it was. We sent engine to them for physical viewing so they could see what we were seeing and after several months of calls they finally told us they never got engine... we verified they signed for it at their docks. To this day they cannot tell us where the engine is. We have written them and they have failed to respond. Horry story has been on going for 2 years now!

I know you can't hang your hat on one person's experience but I know I'll NEVER own another product from Kawasaki. I might could buy another and never have a minutes problem, but having had my hands on two of their products and both having problems is just not a good experience for me.

My 25hp Kohler has 300+ hours on it now and hasn't missed a beat. Cranks right up everytime... never done more than normal service.

 

[colby]

I visit my dealer at least twice a week, guess what Kohler
fans they have probally ten kohler boxes of bad engines
all 25hp they said the crank worn within 3hrs or less
they will go with Kaw only now and as far as Kaw parts no
problem they will stock them or NDA at no extra charge
for their customers, but Kaw parts are readily
every day very seldom a backorder will occur is what they
said.

 

[orangebluegreen]

I have an 18HP Kohler in my Craftsman garden tractor. The rear oil seal went bad after a few years of ownership (bought new). Worst thing was the low oil shutoff never worked and the only way I knew was a very loud ticking, NO OIL. I check the oil every time I use it for just such reasons and it had been full. The seal was over heated and spinning in the engine block and was brittle. I replaced the seal (a full days labor for me) with a factory OEM one and a year later same thing. I decide to go to my local bearing shop for a “better” metal type spring pressure seal Chicago Rawhide part #13514. This time it lasted about 2 years and the front and rear went out by then. I had been using Pennzoil 30 weight. Changed them and another two years oil seal again. This time I stripped the engine down as much as possible to clean it as the oil had caked in the cooling fins. It took DAYS to clean. I replaced the seal with the same #13514. A couple other things discovered. This particular time I had used a “long” Kohler oil filter because I figured perhaps it would help cool the oil better (all the seals where over heated and brittle). What I noticed was the exhaust manifold on the tractor vibrates close to the long filter and adds heat to the filter, using the smaller Kohler filter on this particular tractor is much better to keep it away from the exhaust. I also started using Mobil1 10w30 Oil as I noticed it had helped my Onan motorhome generator run cooler. That was about 3-4 seasons ago now and it has not gone bad since. The tractor is a 1992. I may have the chronology off a bit but close....I think I’ve changed the rear seal 4-5 times and the front once. I think mainly because of the passage ways being cleared and the Mobil1 made a huge difference in this case. I would blame the cooling fins totally but the first time or two they were not plugged, so that was not the entire problem. In between all this I had called Kohler to ask if there was a problem and how I might fix it. I was told that is not a problem they hear about and there was no particular fix. After talking with a mechanic at a very long time established local mower shop I was told by him they saw these seals bad from heat all the time and he showed me a nice oil cooler that was on one customers machine. No doubt the oil cooler is needed in this instance. I notice many of the better ZTR’s have engine oil coolers on them and that tells me there must be a problem. At least most ZTR engines are more open to air. I swore I would never buy another air cooled engine again for mowing......but obviously I’m considering it. Trying to decide between CUT and ZTR right now, or both perhaps. I will say one thing, the engine ran dry several times with NO OIL in it and still shows no ill effects. Once I got so mad at it while mowing and knew what was wrong from the plume of burning oil I decided to keep going without oil to finish. I tried to kill it and it refused so I got a better respect for it after that. It’s been many years since I tortured it and it runs fine, only other item was the magneto couple years ago. Also hit standing water sometimes and if that hits the engine it has to be harder on an air cooled. I try to avoid doing that now that I know there is a potential problem. I don’t have an hour meter but would estimate at least 1000-1300 hours based on Florida homeowner use on 2.5 acres. 3-4 hours a week for 6-7 months less in off times.

Other than the oil seal problems that might be model specific? I am impressed this engine still acts as strong and sealed as new. So now looking at ZTR’s I’m wondering air cooled or water? Would be interested to know if others have had such problems. The extra cost of water cooled would have been much preferred to the labor of changing those seals! If these problems still exist in other applications I would like to know.

 

[SnowRidge]

<font color="blue"> (Worst thing was the low oil shutoff never worked and the only way I knew was a very loud ticking, NO OIL.) </font>

Some Kohlers do come with an oil pressure failure shutoff, but it is in the form of a capability only. The actual shutoff must still be hooked up by the OEM equipment maker. If they don't do it, you get a piece of equipment with a sticker (put on by Kohler) that can lull you into thinking that you are protected when you are not. Not a good situation, and one that Kohler should recognize and remedy.

 

[orangebluegreen]

I got to wondering about that after I wrote this post. I don’t remember seeing the pressure switch like my Onan generator has, so that would be a good reason for it to not shut off. I know the Onan did because the switch itself went bad and started leaking. You’re right, I’ll bet it doesn’t have one and I was lulled into thinking it would certainly be there. Just looked at my Craftsman manual and it says nothing about low oil shutoff. I have a Kohler service manual, will have to look there and see where they locate it, but I don’t remember having disconnected a wire to a sender so it mustn’t have been there.

 

[SnowRidge]

If the engine has the Oil Sentry label, the switch should be there. It will have a wire coming off it (green, IIRC). It just may not have been hooked up by the OEM people. Kohler's literature says that it can be used for a warning buzzer or light, or it can be used to shut down the engine by grounding the ignition. The engine manual shows how to do it.

On the CH-25, the switch is on the top of the engine, partially obscured by the carb assembly.