I am looking at a Farmall 100 tractor and when I checked it while it was running at idle, the ammeter showed the tractor was not charging. The gent selling it told me that it was because when he did the 12V conversion, he didn't change the pulley. He said that it's no big deal and just to make sure that I get the engine running hot and it will start charging normally. First of all, is there really a different pulley used for the 12V system vs the 6V system and secondly, will cranking up the engine and running for a while really make it it charge correctly? Thanks
12V Conversion questions
- Thread starter Ramon
- Start date
Soundguy
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Lots of things to consider.
First. Is it an ammeter or a volt meter.
Most of these antique tractors use an ammtere, and have it wired to show net discharge or charge to the battery. Onc ethe battery is charged.. the needle should be nearly at zero... only showing the 1-3 amps of ignition draw. On an old ammeter.. 1-3 amps may barely be a deflection on the needle.
When folks swap over to an alternator a few new problems arise. 1) alternators usually don't charge under 400-500 rpm. If it is a self exciting alternator.. it may need an engine rpm of up to 1600 to 1800 rpm before it 'excites'. Once excited.. it should charge down to about 500-600 rpm. Under that and it kicks out. Also keep in mind that at low rpm.. the alternator won't be an efficient charger either.. an alternator at 600 rpm won't be charging to full potential. Here's the problem./ Most of our antique tractors tach out pretty quickly. I've seen units that don't even run 1500 rpm, and idle less than 500 rpm. To make up for this you can get a smaller pulley. This pulley make sthe alternaot run at higher than engine rpm.
Another thing to so is get a 3 wire alternator.. not a 1 wire alternator. The 1 wire jobs ar ethe ones that need to be run up to a higher rpm to start to charge.. the 3 wire jobs can be externally excited, and will start charging as soon as excited. For instance.. the gm delco 10-SI alternator comes in both 1 wire and 3 wire versions.. bnoth have internal regulation. The one wire is as i described.. 1 wire to the battery.. lotsa rpm and you are ready to go untill the rpm drops down past 500 or so. The 3 wire jobs have the wire to the battery, and then the p2 terminal tied to the battery stud.. this is a 'sense' line for the VR. P1 is then hooked up to a toggle switch. After you start the tractor and idle it up to a point the alternator can charge.. hit the momentary switch and the alternator kicks to life. There are other ways to do it other than a switch. A diode will work, or even a marker lamp from the ignition switch to the p1.. this gives it some excite power.. but doesn't let the alternator backfeed the ignition. The diode version is elegant.. but some don't like to get into electronics that much.
The extra switch is fool proof and easy.
Probably what the guy has is one that needs to be tached out to start chargeing. That or the ammeter/voltmeter isn't hooked up correctly.
If ya need any more info let me know.
Soundguy
First. Is it an ammeter or a volt meter.
Most of these antique tractors use an ammtere, and have it wired to show net discharge or charge to the battery. Onc ethe battery is charged.. the needle should be nearly at zero... only showing the 1-3 amps of ignition draw. On an old ammeter.. 1-3 amps may barely be a deflection on the needle.
When folks swap over to an alternator a few new problems arise. 1) alternators usually don't charge under 400-500 rpm. If it is a self exciting alternator.. it may need an engine rpm of up to 1600 to 1800 rpm before it 'excites'. Once excited.. it should charge down to about 500-600 rpm. Under that and it kicks out. Also keep in mind that at low rpm.. the alternator won't be an efficient charger either.. an alternator at 600 rpm won't be charging to full potential. Here's the problem./ Most of our antique tractors tach out pretty quickly. I've seen units that don't even run 1500 rpm, and idle less than 500 rpm. To make up for this you can get a smaller pulley. This pulley make sthe alternaot run at higher than engine rpm.
Another thing to so is get a 3 wire alternator.. not a 1 wire alternator. The 1 wire jobs ar ethe ones that need to be run up to a higher rpm to start to charge.. the 3 wire jobs can be externally excited, and will start charging as soon as excited. For instance.. the gm delco 10-SI alternator comes in both 1 wire and 3 wire versions.. bnoth have internal regulation. The one wire is as i described.. 1 wire to the battery.. lotsa rpm and you are ready to go untill the rpm drops down past 500 or so. The 3 wire jobs have the wire to the battery, and then the p2 terminal tied to the battery stud.. this is a 'sense' line for the VR. P1 is then hooked up to a toggle switch. After you start the tractor and idle it up to a point the alternator can charge.. hit the momentary switch and the alternator kicks to life. There are other ways to do it other than a switch. A diode will work, or even a marker lamp from the ignition switch to the p1.. this gives it some excite power.. but doesn't let the alternator backfeed the ignition. The diode version is elegant.. but some don't like to get into electronics that much.
The extra switch is fool proof and easy.
Probably what the guy has is one that needs to be tached out to start chargeing. That or the ammeter/voltmeter isn't hooked up correctly.
If ya need any more info let me know.
Soundguy
upgw
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A buddy of mine did a 12-v conversion on a Ford NAA. He said he had to rev way up to 'excite the alternator' then it would charge normally. I'll say this, the 6V starter really cranks on 12V!! My 130 barely turns over with the 6V system.
- Patrick
- Patrick
Ledgemere Farm
Veteran Member
My Farmall 200 has charging issues. I don't run it enough to get the generator to really charge much. I don't even know if it works. The ammeter, I think, is broken. I put on a new regulator, but haven't got something right. Usually, my battery is dead, so I park it on a hill and coast it down in 2nd gear then pop the clutch. works every time.
Wow Soundguy, that was a huge amount of information and pretty concise. At the end of the day, is it really a big deal to have to crank the throttle up a bit to get the system charging? Do most people just live with it or in the long run, do most people fix the issue. Most of the time when I crank up my tractors, I use them at full throttle in low gears (such as mowing or plowing) but then again, perhaps my battery will go dead the few times I don't? What does everyone think? By the way Patrick, I have a 6V on my Cub and it definitely has a tough time. It's nice that it's original(and I love original) , but when it comes to cranking it up in the cold of winter to get my car out of the snow, I'll vote for the 12v.
Soundguy
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Over on the ytmag ford N-board, about half of our questions come from charging issues.. and it is pretty evenly divided on those that use alternators. ( 3 wire vs 1 wire ).
Most of the nubies go for the 1 wire jobs for the -easy- setup. Most of the learn'd folks go 3 wire.
What it comes down to is yes.. At some point while you mow you are probably at enough rpm to get the alternator going.. but maybee not. On our N's for instance... 540 pto rpm is only 1500 engine rpm... Not all the 1 wire jobs will kick in at that rpm.. some need 1800 or so. Some don't like to jazz the cold engine that high to get it to charge.. and instead wait till it warms up to surge it.. then all is ok.. unless your battery is dead.. and you had to jump it.. etc.. in which case.. there is no power for the ignition till the alt kicks in.. if you pull the jumper cables off. The 3 wire job is really much better.. easier on all involved.. and not hard to hook up.. and if you are only idling the tractor around.. it is deffinately the way to go. For instance.. my parade queen 1946 2n is just used to drive around my neighborhood and hit a few shows... I never rev her up much.. I'm glad I have a 3 wire job on there.
For the other poster that installed a regulator.. do you have a generator? If so.. you may need to polarize the system.. and the correct method of polarization will depend on your genny field setup.. ( a-circuit or b-circuit). You cutout may not be closing if it isn't polarized. Also.. Does that tractor have a magneto? Otherwise I'm guessing it has a reeeeal good genny that makes some voltage at low rpm for the ignition ( some of our N gennies will do that ).. or there is some residual battery power for the ignition.. but just not enough for the starter.
Soundguy
Most of the nubies go for the 1 wire jobs for the -easy- setup. Most of the learn'd folks go 3 wire.
What it comes down to is yes.. At some point while you mow you are probably at enough rpm to get the alternator going.. but maybee not. On our N's for instance... 540 pto rpm is only 1500 engine rpm... Not all the 1 wire jobs will kick in at that rpm.. some need 1800 or so. Some don't like to jazz the cold engine that high to get it to charge.. and instead wait till it warms up to surge it.. then all is ok.. unless your battery is dead.. and you had to jump it.. etc.. in which case.. there is no power for the ignition till the alt kicks in.. if you pull the jumper cables off. The 3 wire job is really much better.. easier on all involved.. and not hard to hook up.. and if you are only idling the tractor around.. it is deffinately the way to go. For instance.. my parade queen 1946 2n is just used to drive around my neighborhood and hit a few shows... I never rev her up much.. I'm glad I have a 3 wire job on there.
For the other poster that installed a regulator.. do you have a generator? If so.. you may need to polarize the system.. and the correct method of polarization will depend on your genny field setup.. ( a-circuit or b-circuit). You cutout may not be closing if it isn't polarized. Also.. Does that tractor have a magneto? Otherwise I'm guessing it has a reeeeal good genny that makes some voltage at low rpm for the ignition ( some of our N gennies will do that ).. or there is some residual battery power for the ignition.. but just not enough for the starter.
Soundguy
upgw
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My 130 charges at 15+ amps for the entire time I'm dragging a harrow, which is about 1 hour per week. Enough charge to boil some water out of the battery, yet it always seems dead. Perhaps the battery is bad, I don't know how old it is. The 'working restoration' is about 10 years old, I think the blown engine was first revived in 1994. It looks like the original wiring and switches were removed and only a single push/pull switch remains. Something discharges the battery if I leave it connected, so I have to pull a terminal at shutdown. I suspect this is a result of the current wiring setup.
I'll probably keep it the original 6V and put up the the slow cranking.
- Patrick
I'll probably keep it the original 6V and put up the the slow cranking.
- Patrick
Soundguy
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It is very possibile that the field winding in the alternator is pulling it down. Try tracing it and putting it on a seperate switch to isolate it. Also.. do you have a spare battery to throw in to check the charge status... perhaps that battery is old like you suspect.. and causing the dead battery.. and prolonged charge rate.
Soundguy
Soundguy
AndyM
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<font color="blue"> Another thing to so is get a 3 wire alternator.. not a 1 wire alternator. The 1 wire jobs ar ethe ones that need to be run up to a higher rpm to start to charge.. the 3 wire jobs can be externally excited, and will start charging as soon as excited. For instance.. the gm delco 10-SI alternator comes in both 1 wire and 3 wire versions.. bnoth have internal regulation. The one wire is as i described.. 1 wire to the battery.. lotsa rpm and you are ready to go untill the rpm drops down past 500 or so. The 3 wire jobs have the wire to the battery, and then the p2 terminal tied to the battery stud.. this is a 'sense' line for the VR. P1 is then hooked up to a toggle switch. After you start the tractor and idle it up to a point the alternator can charge.. hit the momentary switch and the alternator kicks to life. There are other ways to do it other than a switch. A diode will work, or even a marker lamp from the ignition switch to the p1.. this gives it some excite power.. but doesn't let the alternator backfeed the ignition. The diode version is elegant.. but some don't like to get into electronics that much.
The extra switch is fool proof and easy. </font>
I went with the three wire alternator on the 8N.
I have it wired up like this... (see attached picture)
You can avoid the separate switch, or diode, or marker light, simply by installing a key switch with an "accessory" position.
The red wire that runs to the alternator is hooked up to the key switch on the "accessory" terminal on the key switch. The yellow wire coming from the starter solinoid is hooked to the "battery" terminal on the key switch, and the wire coming from the distributor is attached to the "ignition" terminal on the key switch.
I'm certainly not an electronics expert by any means, but I'm good at following directions, even if I don't quite understand them. Someone here on TBN told me to hook it up this way last year, but I can't find the post now. It seems nice and simple, and easy to hook up, and I haven't had a problem with it since I hooked it up that way. Maybe someone else can explain WHY it works that way! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
The extra switch is fool proof and easy. </font>
I went with the three wire alternator on the 8N.
I have it wired up like this... (see attached picture)
You can avoid the separate switch, or diode, or marker light, simply by installing a key switch with an "accessory" position.
The red wire that runs to the alternator is hooked up to the key switch on the "accessory" terminal on the key switch. The yellow wire coming from the starter solinoid is hooked to the "battery" terminal on the key switch, and the wire coming from the distributor is attached to the "ignition" terminal on the key switch.
I'm certainly not an electronics expert by any means, but I'm good at following directions, even if I don't quite understand them. Someone here on TBN told me to hook it up this way last year, but I can't find the post now. It seems nice and simple, and easy to hook up, and I haven't had a problem with it since I hooked it up that way. Maybe someone else can explain WHY it works that way! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
