Six volt positive ground question

   / Six volt positive ground question #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The Jubilee did not come with an amp gauge so I am in the process of buying one and hooking it up. The coil shows negative and positive signs with the negative going to the distributor. So your saying if it runs I should change the leads on the coil as the generator is already polarized?
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Lets see. If your coil shows a '-' and a '+'.. then it is a newer coil. Match the polarities. If you have a negative ground.. '-' goes to the points.. if you have a positive ground, '+' goes to the points.

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #12  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If I walked up to a Jubilee with a generator I'd automatically assume it was 6 volts and if it had an alternator I'd assume 12 volts )</font>

I wouldn't. The NAA are very similar in appearance to the hundred series.. same sheet metal. In fact they look virtually identical, except that NAA rear hubs have an axle nut, and hundred series hubs had a small dished in hub. At 30' away.. they are 'the same' looking. Hundred series and especailly the diesels had 12v gennies and 12v conversions/upgrades for the first 6xx series that were still 6v.

Hard to identify a genny without measuring the field, etc. even looking att the battery can lead you wrong. When i bought my 1950 JD-B it had a 12v negative ground battery int he box, and the generator chage wire was wire nutted off inthe compartment. It came from the factor 6v pos grd.. I checked the voltage at the armature on the genny while full fielding it, and found that it was till setup for 6v pos grnd.. and still worked. I put the correct 6v battery in their, pos grnd, and hooke dthe genny up. When full fielded, it will charge at 7 amps.. just like the manual said.

Alternators don't automatically make me think 12v or neg grnd either. I've seen too many 6v alternators.. especailly on the older tractors. Same with the grnd. positive grnd alternators are more rare.. but deffinately out there.. same with isolated alternators. Some of our heavy equipment use iso alternators.. they have both a negative and positive output lug, and the case of the alternator is isolated fromt he electronics..so ground polarity for the frame of the vehicle is up to you.

I also allow for the fact that a lead acid battery can be charged backwards.. I've seen it many times.

When it comes to electronics.. I simply don't assume anything that I havn't put my meter on untill I see the polarity, and the voltage reading on the armature of a genny or the output stud on the alternator.

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #13  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( it up - the ammeter acted funny for a little bit then jumped several times then settled down and showed full charge which dropped down as I ran it a while and appeared to act like it should. Before this it hardly showed any charge when running more likely even being in - range. )</font>

That negative on the meter was probably the ignition draw on the battery. Most likely the genny was polarized for positive ground, and with the battery hooked up negative ground, the genny wasn't charging. The reason why the whole thing didn't smoke was the cutout relay in the VR. The cutout relay is a bit of wiring magic. I won't go into the whole specifics.. but a vr has current and voltage relays.. anyway.. the cutout doesn't 'close' and connect the armature and battery connections untill the voltage on the armature exceeds the voltage at the battery. When you hooked the battery up correctly, it started charging, like it was polarized for. The bouncy needle readings are common when the cutout closes and the field current adjusts back and forth for a few seconds ( it is going from no load to full load ).

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Now the question - my coil has bat and dist markings (not bat and grnd or + & -) dist pole is to dist as hooked up now. )</font>

That means you have an older oem style coil. In that case.. distrib meant grnd.. and oem it was positive grnd. If you are now positive grnd.. dist goes to ground (+ ). etc. ( If i were you I'd get a new oil filled coil from tsc.. the 6v ones are less than 20 bucks and will outperform the oem 6v coil big time... )

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The gen has two poles on top - one marked grnd the other not marked and one pole on back )</font>

Grnd pole on the casing is ground to the genny case.. and is also the ground reference wire for the genny.. it is good to have a ground reference for your genny running to the vr to make sure there are no differences in ground. For instance.. painted frame may make a minute difference in ground reference at the genny / vr.. that results in a ground loop, and incorrect field control. The other pole on the case is insulated with a fiber or phenolic washer.. it is field. If this is the 2 brush oem genny, the field is internally hot, and needs a ground reference from the genny field tab so that variable field current can flow via the vibrating field contacts in the vr.

The large stud on the back of the genny is the armature.. it is the output stud.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Wondering if I should polarize the system even though it seems to be working fine now. If I need to polarize it, which poles do I short out on the gen )</font>

If it is working now.. don't fix it. Although, repolarizing a genny multiple times will not hurt it. If you ever did need to repolarize it.. on the a circuit gennies you short the armature to the battery 'hot' So on a positive ground system, you are jumpering the armature over to the battery negative post which is also hooked up to the side of the starter solenoid. This polarizes the genny field, for charge polarity, and also polarizes the regulator cutout relay for correct operation.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Also, were you saying earlier that you get a hotter spark with neg ground vs positive ground? If so, maybe I should change it back and change coil wires and repolarize. )</font>

Yes / no. Due to the edison effect.. the positive ground system works well.. ( has to do with the spark plugs, gap, and discharge.. electron theory.. etc.. ) That said.. if you have the later 8n with the side mount coil, you can run it either negative or positive ground as long as you have the igniton coil matched and wired correctly, with no change in high voltage.. though positive ground may make the spark plugs last longer. If you are using a front mount distribuitor and square coil.. it is hardwired, and should really only be run positive ground when on a 6v system, because otherwise you do sacrifice some high voltage.

If you have it back pos grnd.. and have the coil hookd up correct.. leave it.. unless you want to change it.. it is already setup for optimum efficiency ( unless you want to upgrade that coil.. ).

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( but if you can help I can save having to do that I hope )</font>

I agree.. if it's working.. don't fix it.

The only differences you may find with what i wrote, is if your genny is not the oem 2 brush a circuit setup. There was a lso a 3rd adjustable brush genny that had the field contacts on the housing.. but was only used on the very early 8n.. if you have an 8n with a side mount distribuitor and coil.. it should have come with the 2 brush genny. In rare cases a genny shop may have accidentally rebuilt the genny as b-circuit like a hundred series genny.. if so. it uses a different vr, and polarizes differently. But again.. you's is working.. so no need to worry about that...

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #14  
JRS. just a quick reminder as this thread strayed a bit from your question.

Just remember that your NAA genny is a 2 brush B-circuit genny as from the factory, and polarizes differently than the 8n 2 brush A-circuit genny that I've also been talking about.. just don't want anyone to be confused here.

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #15  
Several tractors and Cars/trucks came out with 12V Generators. My friend has a 5000 ford with 12V generator (Lucas) as standard. I actually like generators better if they can handle the load. Battery lasts longer as it does not charge as fast.
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #16  
I personally like generators better myself as well... no diodes to worry about.. just lots of copper and brushes... fairly forgiving for minor problems, and generally start dieing slowly and just charging less rather than an alternator thet generally dies spectacularly.

Also.. I've seen a system with a dead battery and a generator be push started and run.. they disconnected the battery, and ran it down a hill... the genny spun enough for ignition current and it started.. they popped the battery in it and went..

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #17  
[Lucas]

THE KING OF DARKNESS

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #18  
Yep.. lucas.. prince of darkness.. and flaming death..

Soundguy
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #19  
I have a 1960 Farmall 240 and has a 6-volt. I was wondering if that model has the positive ground? My battery wont hold a big enough charge to turn the motor over. The battery isn't even a year old so it cant be that. I bought the tractor 3 years ago and im wondering if the previous owner swapped the cables to a negative ground not knowing what he was doing. Can anyone give me a little advice on it?
 
   / Six volt positive ground question #20  
Yes, it is positive ground. Does the amp gauge show that it's charging..?? If not, I'd guess either the generator, or voltage regulator, or both are not working. If it is showing charge, it may be your battery cables need cleaned (especially the ground), a bit loose, or are not heavy enough.

If they've been replaced with automotive type like 4ga., they aren't heavy enough. Some NAPA's, Ag. Dealers, or Construction Eq. dealers can make you a custom set, and nothing less that 1/0 cable. It will make it start like a new one if everything is up to snuff.

If you're jumping to start, or charging to full charge, then starting, it will run a good while on a charged battery, and the ignition system is drawing the battery down if the charging system is not replenishing the battery.
 
 
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